Episode Transcript
The below text transcription was is intended for audience reference and search purposes. Because it is generated automatically by computer, please forgive mis-translations, spelling and the lack of really any structured grammar.
27 year-old Marshae Jones was five months
pregnant when she was involved in a
fight that ended in the tragic death of
her unborn child
a few months later a grand jury indicted
Marshae on a manslaughter charge for the
death
was this young woman in fact guilty of a
crime or was she also a victim in this
situation
[Music]
this is episode 33 the Marshae Jones story
[Music]
hi megan hi amy good to see you wow that
was really different
great to see you as always great to see
you amy i’m really looking forward to
your case
as always have you heard the Marshae
Jones case
i have only heard you mention it once
and so i’m excited because i don’t know
it well okay so you didn’t look into it
i did not
no i try not to do that i’d like you to
you know i want this to be more of a
natural evolution when it’s possible
excellent there are so many layers to
the Marshae Jones story that
there’s no shortage of things to dissect
can’t wait
but before we get into the story today
as usual
i would like to acknowledge some of our
supporters so megan who do we have today
all right first we have danny r thank
you danny
next we have melissa sio and then we
have theresa from new jersey
love the new jersey girls yes you
probably don’t hate our accent
shout out to terry thank you teresa and
a big thank you to nicole chabala
thank you nicole thanks we have anyone
else today megan yes we have
kelsey weitzel thanks kelsey thank you
very much
and then shannon m from l.a can we come
visit
i’m kind of jealous right now yes thank
you and we cannot forget a big thank you
to amanda from wichita kansas
thank you so much amanda and last but
certainly not least a big thank you to
sarah
thank you sarah we hope you enjoyed
today’s episode before we get into
today’s episode we don’t usually do this
megan but i do want to acknowledge a
review that we got recently
okay because i was so taken aback by it
oh fan from finland that is the username
this was such a heartfelt review i feel
like i teared up and you know i’m
cold and i don’t i don’t cry i know that
you do not cry easily
i’m not gonna read the whole thing but i
do wanna point out that
this listener mentioned our passion for
the cases resonating through our
extensive research
i appreciate that so much because we
spend countless hours
researching these cases and i don’t
think people understand all that goes
into it
even more importantly this review says
that the cases are treated appropriately
seriously
and respectfully the victims are never
shamed blamed or turned into a joke
it’s objective information accompanied
by
validated evidence i appreciated this so
much thank you so much for
recognizing that we really try our best
here the last thing is that this
listener said that this podcast has
educated them on serious matters that
plague society and the criminal justice
system and that’s really what we set out
to do
we always read your reviews good and bad
and of course your case suggestions we
have a running list so
thank you so much to those of you who
have left us a review
now let’s jump into the story of marshay
Jones Marshae Jones grew up in central
alabama in the outskirts of birmingham
her family had lived there for many
generations and to tell you the truth
megan there’s not much on her background
i really looked but all i was able to
find is that she was described
as a quiet soft-spoken woman
a good mother to her young daughter who
was six years old at the time of the
event we’ll be discussing
by all accounts Marshae was just a
hard-working
woman went to church loved her family
and she was years old and five months
pregnant at the time of this incident
okay Marshae worked at the same company
as the unborn child’s father
whose name i was unable to find and also
a woman by the name of ebony jemisin
there were tensions between the two
women ebony and marshay
apparently there were some reports of
jealousy some say
that perhaps ebony had a relationship
with marshay’s boyfriend or
it’s very unclear there’s a message out
there on december th
it was reported that Marshae initiated a
fight with ebony in a parking lot near
their place of employment
are we talking a physical fight or did
this start as you know well it started
because
Marshae was driving past with a group of
friends and she spotted ebony
and at that point she allegedly leaped
out of the vehicle and started attacking
her
wow marsha’s friends also left the car
soon afterward and began moving toward
the scuffle
okay and so i’m assuming this is a
situation where there’s a couple of them
so it’s like what three or four on one
well no ebony was with some friends as
well okay i see but megan the details of
the event have really been contested
by one officer’s account Marshae was
winning the fight
quote unquote and then ebony pinned in
her car
and ebony um was taking repeated blows
to the head
and at this point ebony reached for a
gun and fired it
point blank into marshay’s stomach oh my
god
yes however this account of the fight
differs from what others have offered
which suggests that ebony actually fired
a warning shot at the ground and the
bullet
bounced up and hit Marshae in the belly
these are two radically different
versions but they can also be tested and
verified which i’m sure you’re going to
talk about
you would think paramedics eventually
arrived and took marshay to the hospital
but her unborn child had been struck by
a bullet and
unfortunately died this is terrible yes
the baby was
marleigh Jones and the baby was cremated
later on
so it’s very unfortunate because that’s
the clear victim in this case
is the unborn child was ebony also taken
to the hospital for injuries
no ebony was initially arrested oh
they’re okay but the grand jury declined
to indict her concluding that she had
acted in self-defense
from what you said so far it sounds like
self-defense to me but does it so this
is where i
got caught a little bit self-defense
varies by state in alabama when force is
necessary to prevent imminent harm
or injury then you can have force
against the other
individual however i always thought and
i think i talked to you before about
this that
in some states self-defense you have to
match the level of force
so if i’m coming at you with a fist you
can’t just take out a gun and shoot me
and say it’s self-defense
unless your fist is being used in a way
that would present death and by all
accounts if she’s wailing on her
and i don’t know this yet but if she’s
wailing on this woman and this woman is
taking bloats to the head
and thinks the only way she can save her
life is to take out a gun
i don’t know the circumstances but she
would be justified in
most places to do so remember she was
also in her own car
she was attacked and if the force was so
strong
then she would have been permitted to
and i don’t know if she
i this is going to be a very different
thing i mean if she took out a gun and
aimed for this woman’s stomach
we are talking about a totally different
situation exactly and i do want to point
out
it is a stand your ground state which
would include car
as far as i understand it but she was
not in fact in her car at some point
it sounds like she went to take refuge
in her car but she was outside with a
bunch of friends eating lunch
okay okay as i mentioned the grand jury
declined to indict her
however they took the unusual step of
indicting Marshae
what did they indict Marshae for so they
indicted Marshae on a manslaughter charge
for the death of her own
fetus because she initiated a fight
knowing that she was five months
pregnant
this is so interesting i feel like i we
could debate this
i can’t wait like to hear more of it and
and kind of
give you my opinion and megan remember
the victim here is the unborn child but
it’s Marshae’s unborn child
and this indictment this manslaughter
charge it’s
punishable for up to years in prison
in alabama
many people believe that the
investigation showed that the only true
victim
in this was the unborn baby and it was
because it was the mother of the child
who initiated the fight
and continued the fight she is the one
in fact responsible for the death
Marshae was taken into custody however
she was able to post bail the following
day
with the help of her family and the
yellow hammer fund
any idea what that is never heard of it
the yellow hammer fund
is an organization that supports
abortion rights they’re a reproductive
justice organization that serves alabama
and other
southern states why are abortion
activists getting involved in this
so hang on that will become clear in
just a moment on the edge of my seat
here just so you know
alabama decided not to prosecute Marshae
Jones in july of laneice washington
who was the jefferson county district
attorney
had a press conference and said that she
would be dismissing the case and there
would be no further legal action
taken against miss Jones in this matter
remember now the d.a had the choice of
either proceeding with the grand jury’s
recommendations
and charging her with manslaughter
reducing the charge or dropping the
charge so this is a case where
the prosecution decides she is going to
drop the charge
i think it’s interesting that she did
note in this press conference that
not prosecuting Marshae Jones was not a
criticism of the citizens who sat
on the grand jury because she believed
that the citizens took the evidence
presented to them
and it was a reasonable decision to
indict
however she believed that it was a
disturbing and heartbreaking case
and the main victim was this unborn
child who was tragically lost
and both families have really suffered
because of this and nothing
that she could do can change that actual
fact
okay so she believes that Marshae had
suffered enough alone at the loss of her
child and that was that punishment was
sort of worse than any punishment the
system would meet out it
sounds like that but if we look at
prosecutorial discretion
right we talk about this all the time
usually we see it used in the opposite
way
in this case we see a prosecutor who was
not afraid to use her power
to refuse to prosecute when justice in
her eyes
wasn’t being served and i want to talk
to you about this megan because many
community members believe that the
charges should be dropped
so i’m wondering do you think if there’s
community consensus
should the prosecution honor that
because remember when someone commits a
crime it’s society
who’s being harmed so was the prosecutor
right in dropping charges
because the community was rallying for
that i don’t know
that’s a really hard question to answer
i think
that it should be a factor to be
considered so i think the prosecutor has
a duty
to prosecute crimes against the state
and that is the first and foremost duty
you know within the bounds of the law
and within procedure i do believe
victims families community members they
should have input i believe prosecutors
should meet with them i believe there
should be transparency
however that being said i don’t think
that should be the only
driving force behind a prosecutor’s
decision i think it should be almost
like
one of you know a three-prong or
four-prong test
and i think that’s probably what
happened here do you think wait do you
think the prosecutor then decided not to
indict because of community
pressure that’s what i was wondering i
think part of it was empathy
because i think maybe as a woman she may
she maybe she’s a mother maybe she’s not
but maybe she’s able to empathize and
know that
although Marshae may have initiated this
fight Marshae might not have
recognized that the loss of her child
was a potential
byproduct of her actions and if she did
know that would she have still initiated
that fight it’s hard to say
right do we know anything about i know
you didn’t know anything about uh or i
know we don’t know much about Marshae’s
childhood but was there any like testing
done to tell us whether or not she had
iq
issues or nothing like that done there
was so little on this case megan
okay that’s fine and to our listeners if
you were able to find sources other than
the sources i cite at the end please let
me know because i’m very interested in
this case and
there’s not much on it how did you find
this case amy well that’s what we’re
getting to
so we haven’t gotten to the meat of this
yet okay the only thing i want to
mention about the story before i get
into some of the questions that were
ignited after this
is that ebony could have moved forward
with assault charges against Marshae but
she decided not to
and i kind of respect that that was
really because ebony is a victim here
too
Marshae by all accounts Marshae is the one
who initiated the fight
so we can’t forget that ebony is also a
victim of an assault here
but i think that shows something about
her character that she knows this woman
lost the child
and she just wants to just put it to
rest i think it shows compassion
i think so too the larger discussion is
really the aftermath in this complex
case
[Music]
okay
it’s not easy to prioritize yourself
when there’s a lot on your plate
but investing in your mental health has
long-term benefits and with talkspace it
can actually be affordable
talkspace online therapy is here to give
you that support because we all need it
right now
match with a licensed therapist from the
comfort of your device and reach out
whenever something’s on your mind
you’ll hear back
daily five days a week megan you know
what i really appreciate about talkspace
it is so easy to use you can go right
through the app or you can use the
internet-based version if you want but
once you sign in they give you an agent
and the agent matches you with your
perfect therapist
so no more like scouring the internet
looking for that you know whether you
want male or female someone who
specializes whatever
this person acts as like your middleman
and they find you the perfect therapist
and they ask you a lot of questions to
help figure out who would be a good
match for you the talkspace network is
composed of thousands of licensed
therapists
who have experience in over
specialties including but not limited to
treating depression anxiety substance
abuse
trauma relationship issues food eating
and much more the bottom line is we all
need someone to talk to
talkspace wants to give us the support
we deserve at a price we can afford
as a listener of this podcast you get
off your first month on talkspace
to match with your perfect therapist go
to talkspace.com
or download the app make sure to use the
code women and crime to get
off your first month and show your
support for the show that’s
women a-n-d crime and talkspace.com
careof is a wellness brand that makes it
easy to maintain your health goals with
a customized vitamin plan that helps you
feel your best today
and supports you long term as the
seasons change it is important to get
ahead of taking care of your immune
health it takes about days for your
body to adapt to new nutrients so now is
a great time to update your vitamin and
wellness routine
to help support your immune system this
fall megan i have to say
i’m going on about a little over days
now
of taking my care of vitamins and i’m
feeling good have you noticed a change
in my mood i have noticed a change in
your mood
and i have a bit more energy and i’m
thrilled with that all of carob’s
products are formulated with good for
you
clean ingredients that are backed by
science your recommendations come in
daily individually wrapped packets that
are perfect for getting back into a
routine what i really appreciated was
the
super simple and easy quiz that i took
online
that helped tailor my vitamin packets to
my lifestyle i feel like i’m able to get
the vitamins that best suit my needs
tariffs holistic online quiz is like
getting a one-on-one consultation with a
nutritionist
all without leaving your house for
off your first care of order
go to take care of dot com and enter
code women and crime
. again for off your first care of
order
go to take care of dot com and enter
women and crime
. that’s women a-n-d crime –
[Music]
alabama has a very broad manslaughter
law which makes it a felony to
quote-unquote recklessly cause the death
of another person pretty straightforward
okay however what does a person mean
there’s debate over quote-unquote
personhood
the debate over personhood begs the
question should a fetus be granted the
rights of a person
and at what point in the pregnancy does
that fetus
have personhood oh dear yeah
that’s going to be okay so just a little
background it’s important to know
alabama’s law surrounding abortion
because it becomes relevant
okay alabama is among at least states
with laws that classify fetuses
as victims in homicides or assault in
alabama
a quote unquote person includes an
embryo or a fetus at any stage of
development
so under alabama law life begins at
conception
and the notion that the law should treat
a fetus like a person is widely held
in alabama in fact alabama lawmakers
passed one of the most restrictive
anti-abortion bills in the country last
may did you know this
no they banned abortion at any stage of
pregnancy even in cases of rape
or incest what they banned abortion
amy that’s not possible they can’t make
abortion illegal that would be a direct
challenge to roe v wade it’s
unconstitutional
and we know that once the supreme court
sets a landmark
k such as roe v wade a state cannot go
above that
but i think it was more symbolic for
alabama because the governor
did sign it into law in may of
however acknowledged that it was
unconstitutional and likely would not
happen
oh so he knew this wasn’t going to pass
i’m sure the way he tried to get around
it was to
make very minimal exceptions like i bet
he
said if the child would pose such a
serious harm to the mother that death
could be like there’s something you know
some exception that
actually or megan by having only one
clinic that actually performs abortions
in the whole state that’s another way to
do it
oh my god yeah so we’ve seen this before
with
other policies yeah i think i mean i can
give an example case in point new jersey
right you you can’t restrict
their second amendment you have the
right to own firearms do you know how
hard it is to obtain a firearm in jersey
it’s essentially by all intents and
purposes it’s illegal in new jersey yeah
it’s essentially outlawing it it’s like
de facto illegal
it’ll be interesting to see what happens
because from what i understand the aclu
and planned parenthood
have a case pending at the supreme court
level
oh yeah well i’m sure that’s where it is
oh i’d be really curious
let’s let’s keep our eye obviously on
this one and i’m sure this will come up
again in another case
but in alabama and possibly the country
this was the first time the idea that a
fertilized egg
or a fetal personhood has provided the
basis for the arrest of a woman
because she was pregnant when she
herself was the potential victim
oh so this is important because it’s a
first exactly and what year was this in
again amy
it happened in december incident
but the indictment everything else that
followed was in . so we’re just a
year out of this yeah that’s why
it’s there’s still a big conversation
going around it right
many people feel that the anti-abortion
laws put women who miscarry in a
blame-worthy position because Marshae
act in fact miscarried you know it’s not
that the
bullet murdered the child the bullet
wound caused her to miscarry
right this is like when we talk about
cause of death mechanism of death
yes i understand this case has served as
a stark illustration of how pregnant
women can be judged
and punished when a fetus is treated as
a person by the justice system
so just as a side note alabama charges
more women with crimes related to
pregnancy than any other state
i find it very interesting that one of
the possible charges that women face
is chemical endangerment that is drug
use
so women aren’t are disproportionately
punished for drug usage
really in a web of laws that
increasingly target
mothers so facing long prison sentences
sometimes
can discourage women from seeking help
another recent case that i want to bring
up that
similarly asks who’s responsible when a
fetus
dies and when should a mother if ever be
held accountable
are you aware of the case of chelsea
cheyenne becker absolutely not all right
so in california just last september
becker was arrested and charged with
murder after giving birth to a stillborn
son what
so you shouldn’t need to know more
clearly so she gave birth to a stillborn
son so you automatically think oh this
poor woman right she’s a
that’s what i would have assumed
hospital safe had called the police
based on suspicions that becker had been
using methamphetamine while pregnant
six weeks later becker was arrested and
charged
with murder on the claim that meth
caused the stillbirth
are they also i’m sorry what is it like
murder in the first then or murder like
it’s
attempted is it just manslaughter i
can’t even
i imagine because the intent is probably
not to murder your child
i didn’t say manslaughter it said murder
but okay again we know every state has
very specific
definition so but as far as i was able
to find
becca remains in jail because she could
not afford to pay bail which was
originally set at million and then
lower to million
so this case we should keep an eye on
this case because this case can
potentially open the door to criminally
prosecuting someone
who does something that can later cause
harm to their unborn child so it’s a bit
of a slippery slope
it is for most people they’re going to
look at or for a lot of people they’re
going to look at
and say well it’s really irresponsible
and harmful to use drugs but
it’s the slope of what else like yeah
you went horseback riding
and that’s dangerous to pregnant women
right you had too much
sugar who knows like it just yeah you
had some coffee yeah you didn’t take
your vitamins you
ingested um you know something that you
basically
should not have if you’re pregnant like
without so again i
understand part i understand it but part
of me is worried that
this could open up the door to other
issues for pregnant women
just to put this in context for you
megan as mentioned each state is pretty
specific with how they look at these
things
okay so how are fetuses viewed in the
criminal justice system in california
that’s relevant here okay so in
california amended the state’s murder
statute
to add fetuses as potential victims but
it was meant for the law to apply to
people who harm pregnant women
not pregnant women themselves i mean it
makes me think of scott peterson and
lacey peterson exactly
and you know that basically it’s a
double murder because yeah because he
harmed here because he killed the fetus
or was convicted of that absolutely
it’s so interesting what the law intends
and how it becomes
sort of perversed i have to say because
right i would never have thought that it
would be
intended to be used against women and
it’s funny you bring that up because one
of the main
take-homes from this whole episode is
just that as far as
personhood laws and how they in fact
affect women
if becker’s case goes to trial which
it’s unclear at this moment if it will
it will be the first time a california
court has permitted a murder trial
against a woman for acts she committed
while pregnant
that may have resulted in the loss of
her child so that’s huge
that is huge but california is not the
first state i mean other state alabama
and then other states are doing this i
understand what you’re saying
but i feel like this is not the first
time this issue has come up it is not
the first time
this issue has come up i think what’s
interesting
is that the consensus among many people
in the medical and public health
field is that the use of drugs by women
during pregnancy
is a public health issue not a criminal
justice
issue and i think this is kind of
putting it in that gray area
it’s argued by some that the threat of
criminal prosecution
may in fact endanger maternal and fetal
health by deterring women from obtaining
prenatal health care right i know that’s
one of the concerns and certainly that
would be
mine as well but the counter argument to
that is women who are
using drugs while they’re pregnant are
probably not going to be exacting
uh prenatal care well we know that
pregnancy outcomes have a lot more to do
with economic
social and environmental conditions more
so than anything else such as drug use
sure absolutely and all of that’s really
it’s hard to parse out do you know what
new jersey’s fetal homicide law is megan
you know i
i surprisingly i don’t educate me okay i
didn’t know either before this episode
new jersey only acknowledges that when a
criminal attacks a pregnant woman
and injures or kills both her and her
unborn child in the commission of a
federal crime then
that person has claimed two human
victims i’m just playing devil’s
advocate here what happens if
i attack someone who’s pregnant and she
survives but the fetus does not
is that applicable under jersey law now
injures or kills
both her and her child so i guess that’s
why i asked yeah
so if she’s okay and and the child is
injured then that
that law probably wouldn’t kick in there
might be another type of consequence
so interesting this was passed in
and as we know with most laws
until that exact situation comes up the
law is not going to change but i think
it’s
very probable that there will be a
situation like that in the future that
would beg us
you know the question of is this fair i
have to imagine that we’re going to
encounter a case like that and this is
similar to the federal act which
was called the unborn victims of
violence act
why have i never heard of these things
okay tell me about that one so that one
just recognizes that an embryo or fetus
at any stage of development
in utero is a legal victim if they are
injured or killed
during the commission of over listed
federal crimes
so if a fetus is injured or killed
during the commission of any of those
it’s almost like felony murder in a way
it sounds like that
but it doesn’t matter at any stage in
the federal system you’re saying for
specific crimes
if from the time of conception through
all the way through nine months or all
the way through birth
that’s considered a crime and and be
prosecuted by law
correct but there are many states that
look at age of gestation
and say if the fetus would have been
able to survive
outside of the mother’s body then it is
considered a person or a victim
in other words if you murder a woman who
is only five weeks pregnant that’s
different than if you murder a woman who
is weeks pregnant oh my god now how
do we know if that baby would have
survived outside the womb that’s when
you bring in your medical experts
some states will give a number weeks
you know so it depends on the state
but it just i just think the main point
is that it’s so
complicated and every state has these
little differences
and it’s so circumstantial you’re
talking about like a really wide
variability from
conception to five months to seven
months to nine months and obviously
i’m not any kind of expert on this and i
know you aren’t either but
i would almost imagine if they’re
looking at that standard you know you
bring in the experts but i would also
i would imagine they are almost going
with like the lowest bar in terms of we
know the youngest
fetus to survive was at this age and
that’s where they would argue the bar
should be but i also know that changes
too as we get
medical advances you know so i wonder
how often they would have to change that
number i just meant historically yeah
the youngest we know of if it got
younger but
i would imagine they could use that as
the bar something i want um our
listeners to check out the new york
times had an amazing
piece called the feticide playbook
explained amy before you go on you said
feticide can you tell everyone what
feticide
is in case our audience doesn’t know
feticide is the murder of a fetus
it was it was published in and it
does exactly what the title says
it gives vastly different examples of
cases
of feticide and it highlights the
immense state differences and can
illustrate how these minor
circumstantial differences in cases
can amount to vastly different outcomes
for offenders and victims alike
what really stood out to me in this
article is it touches upon this idea
that it’s a catch-
pregnant women are victimized which then
prompts
state laws to change which is then used
to prosecute
pregnant women oh my goodness wow and
who do you think is targeted as often
marginalized low-income women of color
or women in the lgbtq communities you
know the more stigma against these
groups
the more people who lose their
pregnancies will be treated with
suspicion
right so that’s going to be one of those
unintended consequences as well
yes the article also talks about how the
criminalization of miscarriages emerges
from a culture that insists that
pregnant people are exclusively
responsible for the outcomes of their
pregnancy
but as we talked about there’s
environmental factors sociological
factors economic factors
that go into pregnancy outcomes not
everyone lives in the same environment
and
we know our environment contributes to
outcomes but not everyone’s going to be
criminalized for miscarriages either the
the point is if you’re part of a
marginalized group right then people are
going to give you the side eye when you
have a miscarriage and blame
you for something you did so i think in
the case of Marshae
it brought up all these interesting
questions had she been prosecuted
i think this would have caused outrage
there were some really well-written
articles and i’ll
cite them um at the end okay so there
were some pretty big news outlets that
had interesting more like thought pieces
that bring up all these other issues
okay but i was surprised that i hadn’t
heard about this case
more because it brings up so many
interesting questions
i’ve never heard of this case and i i’m
glad you brought it to my attention
again i have mixed feelings but i’m
going to hold that until yeah i’m almost
done i just had one more thing i wanted
to bring up
okay assault is a felony in alabama
i find it interesting that they could
have indicted Marshae
on felony murder rather than
manslaughter how could they have
indicted her on felony murder because
the
death happened during the commission of
a felony which was the assault
exactly sorry because that’s a felony
there i you know it’s confusing with
assault too because you know in jersey
you can have simple you kind of
aggravate it yeah you can actually
misdemeanor assault’s not a felony in
every state but in alabama it is so just
for our listeners who don’t know
the felony murder rule says that anyone
who dies during the commission of a
felony is then responsible
so i always tell my students the most
straightforward example
you rob a bank that’s a felony somebody
does have a heart attack
because you’re robbing a bank and it
scares them you’re going to be held
responsible
for that death even though you had no
intention there was no men’s rhea as far
as killing someone
well we actually know a lot of offenders
who have been convicted under
felony murder rules the groups that we
work with in some of the prisons in new
jersey the lifers group in rahway
i believe like half of their members
have been convicted under felony murder
is that not correct
you’re absolutely correct and i don’t
know if you’re with me on this but
i’d say felony murder is up there with
the top three policies i would change if
i had the power to felony merge
absolutely
up there you know i think of the example
of i’m not going to name him by name but
one of the members of the lifers group
he was with
another friend and they were committing
a robbery but then
the friends killed whoever the victim
was he did not he was never
it was never intimated that he was the
shooter he stayed
with the victim because he felt terrible
and
when they got arrested he did not
cooperate he did not really rat out his
friend even though it came out later but
the friend who shot
the you know the clerk or the victim he
was he cooperated was convicted and he
is out now and the non-shooter under
felony murder is still
in prison felony murder rule is
antiquated it is misused
it’s abused and it should go it just
doesn’t make sense in a system
that rests on the idea of mens raya
which is
guilty mind right intent and actus race
which is the action
felony murder totally negates the mens
reia i i agree
by the way i know that we’re we’re going
to come back to marshay’s case but
because you said it you’re like what’s
your top three
yeah like top if you have to thank your
top three areas of reform i would
actually say felony murder is one of
them
i would also have to say plea bargaining
it has got to be reformed the coercion
of prosecutor
i know what your third is no you don’t
yes i do go ahead bail nope
because i used to i was always on bail
and i’m seeing some reform so if i have
to pick three now i’m actually going
with the appeals process now
by which people will wait up you know
wrongful uh convictions those who are
sitting
waiting years to get a piece of dna
tested the appeals process has become my
new obsession and my new
desire to reform so you’re also talking
about like post-conviction dna testing
absolutely because some states have made
large strides in that area but
we have a long way to go the appeals
process though in general you have to
wait you know you submit a brief
you wait a year or two for a decision
the state has a year or two
people just languish because we don’t do
speedy justice
as well as we should and i know we
shouldn’t rush but the appeals megan
you have the right to a speedy trial
yeah but you don’t get you don’t get one
anyway
and then after your trial nobody cares
so you just sit so i’m gonna say those
are my
three what are your three now i was
afraid you were gonna ask me i know so
felony murder and accomplice liability
i’m gonna put those hand in hand
that’s fine because they’re so often
it’s okay together okay
the use of eyewitnesses in the courtroom
without
corroborating evidence okay because
there have been people that have been
convicted almost solely
on identifications and i don’t think
that and a lot of states have made big
strides and also i think the use of
well spoiler alert we’ll be talking
about this in an episode coming up but
the use of junk science particularly as
it applies to arson cases
okay that’s where i am at the moment but
you asked me tomorrow it’ll probably
change
that’s fine and actually a big one for
me too and i might get some backlash but
abolishing the death penalty
yeah i know you feel strongly about that
one i i
i don’t disagree i just don’t agree as
sorry
um that was a side note we just we got
geeked out on policy a little bit but i
know you want to bring it back to march
can i ask you first a pointed question
right do you believe
that Marshae in fact should be
responsible if not who
is responsible we have a victim here
someone has to be held responsible
that’s the that greatest question i have
to say my feelings are extremely mixed i
understand
why she was not prosecuted i understand
that she i
highly doubt that she went into this
fight or attacked this girl
thinking anything about that her
her unborn baby would be injured or
killed but she has a responsibility to
her
take care of her child and i do see her
as culpable in some way i’m not going to
lie when you are five months pregnant
it seems holy and this is what i think
of of
reckless to pick a physical fight off
the street to physically attack
another person i think that behavior is
reckless and i think she should have
anticipated
that that could have harmed her baby so
i do
this is where i’m gonna i don’t know if
this is gonna be a popular opinion i’m
not sure what the right answer is but i
do believe she’s culpable in some way so
would you say a manslaughter charge is
the appropriate charge
yes i mean it’s certainly maybe it
wouldn’t be anything with intent it
certainly would be
i can see the case for reckless
manslaughter to be made and i i know
that
she probably suffered a lot but she’s
culpable
there she committed if you look at like
the letter of the law i would say she
committed reckless manslaughter
i don’t fully disagree with you megan
but you don’t agree with me well
let me just ask you do you think even if
you don’t want to see her punish and
again i don’t think like a prison
sentence is necessarily appropriate
do you think that she’s culpable yes i
do think she is culpable
does that mean she deserves punishment i
don’t
personally believe so but i think if we
had to say who’s responsible for
that unborn child’s death and we had to
pick someone but then again some people
could argue
that was ebony justified
in a warning shot let’s assume that she
shot it into the ground because the more
common narrative is that she did not
shoot her point blank in the stomach
so part of me and she was licensed to
carry okay she did legally have the
firearm
but i wonder if did she really feel that
her life was in danger did she really
feel the need to bring a firearm into
this situation without knowing the
details we wouldn’t know for sure but
what you’re telling me is that she’s
licensed to carry a firearm she was
attacked
physically attacked at least strong
enough that she tried to
flee in her car she’s got a case for me
for self-defense
i don’t know if it’s it doesn’t seem
like a good idea ever to shoot a gun
around at the floor because there is
ricochet
and i don’t think that’s a brilliant
idea yeah but i’m not sure that i would
hold her responsible i
wouldn’t hold her responsible for the
death yeah i don’t think that
i don’t think that would be fair i don’t
even know if she knew that Marshae was
pregnant to be honest
five months i mean some women don’t show
so it’s possible she had no idea
i don’t know yeah at the end of the day
i would go with the fact that i think
Marshae is culpable
but i probably think she’s punished
enough by the consequences of her
actions so she’s gonna have to live with
that for her entire life
the guilt is probably enough but i do
think she’s responsible
no i respect that all right amy well
thanks for bringing us this really
interesting case today
uh i just want to say that i don’t know
um
i i don’t know where i stand i have no i
don’t have a stance on when
a fetus should be considered a person
that’s really beyond i think
amy you would agree that’s beyond our
scope i think it’s a really interesting
argument but
certainly i wouldn’t have an opinion on
that one yet
because there’s some people have a
religious argument some people have a
scientific argument i don’t think we’re
in the position to talk about that and
i’m not sure that that’s
exactly relevant in this case i’m not
sure that i would feel different if
the unborn child was two months versus
five months so megan i know
that was quite the controversial case
but to end here today
let’s get to one of our patrons
questions right ready
so kelsey weitzel had a question
actually one of kelsey’s questions
was asking about what kind of books we
like to read and we actually
have a really nice book list on our
website that james put together yeah we
do you can go to women in crime to check
out our book list but i can just tell
you really quickly a couple of my
favorites
i love lisa jewell love megan miranda
love greg olsen so i’m a one-trick pony
i read
mostly crime books yeah for me i’m big
into memoirs i do like some of the true
crime stuff but
yeah check out our list for sure and
definitely let us know what you’re
reading as well
okay kelsey your other question you’re
you’re wondering what percentage of
criminals have
narcissistic personality and how it
might impact their criminal activity
this is a really interesting question
when we talk about
personality disorders they exist along a
continuum correct
so we know well actually let’s back up
megan someone with a narcissistic
personality disorder right
this is someone who is a great
manipulator they hold a grandiose view
of themselves
um an insatiable need for admiration
sense of entitlement
the world revolves around this person
absolutely
many criminals have been diagnosed with
narcissistic personality or people have
at least
theorized that they have it casey
anthony chris oh yeah oh yeah
um i covered this in a lot of my classes
you do who else ted bundy
um o.j simpson j.j simpson jody arias
diane downes the list goes on and on
those with narcissistic personality
disorders are not inherently violent
however when threatened with a loss of
control or
power they are known to turn to violent
acts
okay yeah particularly there has been a
connection between
men with narcissistic traits and some
sexual offenses
okay that makes sense you know it’s
really hard to say what percentage
because number one narcissistic
personality disorder
is not it’s not a mental health defense
used in the court of law
no it’s personality disorder it’s a
personality disorder right so it’s not
that we could you know we could say how
many
people plead to insanity and how many
people get we can still see by recent
insanity but
we can say usually with mental health
issues um such as bipolar disorder and
other
mental illnesses per se we usually know
the number so it can tell you
the number the percentage of people in
the system with narcissistic personality
disorder is definitely going to be
higher
but we really couldn’t say for sure what
the exact number is on that one
thank you so much for that really
interesting question
uh amy thanks for bringing us this
interesting case today appreciate it
and we’ll catch you next time on women
in crime thank you
women in crime is written and hosted by
megan sachs and amy schlossberg
our producer and editor is james varga
our music is composed by dessert media
[Music]
sources for today’s episode include the
washington post, al.com, the new york times the national
council of state legislators
and cnn