Kathleen Zellner

Episode Transcript

The below text transcription was is intended for audience reference and search purposes. Because it is generated automatically by computer, please forgive mis-translations, spelling and the lack of really any structured grammar.

This is the story of a woman whose work in the
criminal justice system has shined the
spotlight on wrongful convictions in the
United States and while her work has
enlightened us all the case that
inspired her efforts is one that just
might haunt us.

[Music]

This is episode 21, the Kathleen Zellner
story

[Music]

Hey Amy good to see you today.
Hi Megan
Miss you I miss you too and I can’t wait
til we’re recording again together I
know let’s give some shoutouts are you
ready my favorite part let’s do it I
know I love this too
ok first is and Reena from Switzerland
thank you and Reena and Reena actually
helped us with some social media stuff
she like volunteered her time and made
us even like a little document and I
just and she didn’t make us feel old
when we had no clue about I felt old
anyway but I love you and Reena thank
you so much
we have Baily from Illinois and she came
from listening from true crime obsessed
heard about us and then came over
oh thanks Bailey and Bailey has a
question for us how often do you think
the backlog of DNA testing keeps victims
from justice and perpetrators from being
charged men and women and what can we do
to help end the backlog I love that
question that further the answer to the
first part is a strong yes so I think
the number one thing we could do is ask
Congress to prioritize funding so I’ve
read some reports that say there’s over
, rape kits that are currently
sitting untested so that means a hundred
thousand victims who have not received
justice that also means potentially a
hundred thousand rapists who have not
been apprehended and just as bad it
could also very well mean that people
that are wrongfully convicted that are
wrongfully charged of rapes that these
rape kits could possibly exonerate did
you know something interesting Megan
that some labs consider backlog after
sample has not tested for only days I
had no idea even more surprising is NIJ
considers that a backlog after only
days so it is interesting to think about
when does a sample become considered
backlog versus you know a current sample
I think it’s all about just prioritizing
funding yeah I think one of the things
that happened was that they were
collecting DNA for a long time but
didn’t have the technology all the
sudden there’s the technology but then
there’s all these untested kits already
so then where do you start and so I
think the backlog was a function of that
and began from the beginning and now we
just need more DNA technicians more
money and it really is a funding issue
and unfortunately it’s not always easy
to get
funding no it’s not but we hope we hope
that there is funding for this issue
it’s really really important I think
we’re going to see that happen thank you
for your question belly hope that
answers it next we have Brooke from
Flagstaff Arizona and Brooke actually
wrote to us suggesting that we visit
Sedona and Flagstaff saying how pretty
they are on our trip that were taking
this summer when you say our trip you
don’t mean me and you you and James
maybe if it’s the Sedona right yes I was
actually born in Arizona fun fact Sedona
is breathtakingly beautiful you need to
go there okay thank you so much for the
ride and then we have a friend that we
can visit when we go I was gonna say
that I keep saying that like oh so we’ll
see you there everyone’s maybe like oh
my god these girls are really gonna look
us up thanks for the suggestion Brooke
we have Cindy from Utah ironically Cindy
we might also be taking a road trip out
there and when I say we I mean me and
James sorry
we have Cassie from Columbia Missouri
question she is curious what we think
about the Laurie valo case oh I’ve been
on this for a while I actually wrote
back to Cassie but let me just also say
that I think it’s too soon to say what
the cause of death is for the kids and
I’m talking about for tighly and JJ I
read something that it said they died a
gruesome death as I read it I realized
they still didn’t know how it was way
too premature they should not be
publishing anything like that I mean we
hope they didn’t suffer like it’s like
now that we know we just have to hope
that it was as painless and as quick as
possible in terms of Lori Val oh I don’t
know about her mental state and I would
need to know more about it what I’ve
read is that she believed her kids were
zombies and other people were zombies
and they had Dark Souls and there she
had to do something to eradicate it I
know that she was very heavily
influenced by Chad day Belle’s teachings
and two things I said when she goes with
the legal strategy I’m gonna assume that
either they’re going to try to pin it on
her brother who was gone or they’re
gonna try to plead it insanity defense
and I would love to cover this case when
we get a little more information as you
mentioned it’s so early on so it’s
really hard to speculate and I think
it’s problematic when people speculate
having all the facts anyway right yeah
so we will actually come back to this
when we have more information thank you
for your support
we have McKenna from Los Angeles I love
your name McKenna her sister and her mom
also listen to the podcast thanks like a
family thing that we know and we have
Sara Lou cozy and Sara is actually a
direct appeal listener as well Sara what
do you think innocent or guilty we need
to know and finally we have Tamara
Hawthorne from Queensland Australia
oh how amazing Thank You Tamara
Australia is beautiful I had the honor
of going there Megan two years ago and I
have to say it is one of the most
beautiful places I’ve ever visited
I remember do you remember I could have
gone as well but I was afraid to get on
the plane and go that far
yes you’re a baby you missed out trip I
held a koala and a kangaroo let me say
Tamara actually also has a whole squad
of listeners as well so thank you and
let me also say that we’re reading
Tamara’s name this time and not last
week because James forgot her on the
last list your fire James fired
sorry Tamara hope hope we don’t forget
you in the future we’ll blame it on
James oh yes and that’s it thank you so
much everyone thanks for writing us
again love the questions and we really
like the engagement so today’s case is
one I am super excited about and it’s so
excited to talk to Amy about so based on
my description do you know who I’m
covering today Amy I’m gonna have to say
Kathleen Zellner
ding ding you got it it is Kathleen
Zellner many of you might know her from
making of a murderer part she is
Steven Avery’s lawyer and we are going
to actually get to a couple of her cases
and updates in the Steven Avery case but
I want to begin by giving you a look at
Kathleen’s backgrounds and what led her
down this path to become the lead
wrongful conviction attorney I would say
or lead a wrongful conviction
exoneration attorney in the United
States because to date Kathleen has
exonerees to her name which is just an
incredible feat Kathleen was born on May
th
to Winifred and Owen Daniel Thomas she
was raised by her parents in Midland
Texas along with her seven siblings
until such time when they moved to
Bartlesville Oklahoma from a young age
Cathleen envisioned herself working for
the FBI or as an investigative
journalist and I’d just like to say
Aimee side note that I wanted to work as
a criminal lawyer or like an
investigator as well since I’ve been
about seven or eight so I totally
related to that Cathleen also learned
martial arts at a young age and she was
the type of kid and this will come
probably as no surprise who didn’t
tolerate bullying either for herself or
people around her Cathleen originally
attended Marquette University in
Wisconsin with aspirations of becoming a
history professor but the school was not
for her and after one semester she
transferred to the University of
Missouri where she met her husband
Robert Sellner with whom she has one
daughter her name is Ann and Ann is also
a practicing attorney Robert and
Kathleen would go on to live in Montreal
briefly which is really where Kathleen
finished her Bachelor degree in Montreal
it was reportedly Robert who recognized
that Kathleen’s strong will would serve
her well in the legal field and with his
support and really his urging Kathleen
attended Northern Illinois law school
Kathleen worked for other firms for a
bit but she actually opened her own firm
specializing in medical malpractice in
also handling prisoner abuse cases
and wrongful conviction cases and while
we all know her for these famous cases
let’s hear how she got to where she is
today because I’m not sure if anyone
knows the case that led her to only want
to defend truly innocent people do you
know this case or no no maybe once you
say it but I don’t know who you’re
alluding to okay this is the case that I
did not know her for either and I found
so interesting and I fell down a rabbit
hole on this one and this is the Larry
Euler case nope no where I see Amy’s I’m
still blank on that one so now it sounds
vaguely familiar but I definitely don’t
know okay shortly after zelner opened
that practice in
an anti-death penalty organization asked
her to take on the appeal of Larry Euler
convicted of murdering and dismembering
a year old boy Ayler was a young
attractive house painter in the s
and s living in Indiana he had a very
troubled childhood though filled with
alcoholism and abuse by his parents and
several stepfathers eyler also struggled
with his sexuality and he had feelings
of self-loathing because he was gay and
it was said that
islur would kill young gay men after
sexual encounters because this inner
conflict that he had now I just told you
that he was convicted of dismembering
and killing a boy and then I’m saying
now there are multiple victims here so
keep that in mind
I’ll ER lived with Robert David little
he was an older professor who worked at
Indiana State University but this was a
platonic relationship because I learn
was also he was younger he was
attractive little was a little a little
bit older and not so attractive it was
just a platonic living situation but
Iowa also was involved with a married
man a man who was married to a woman and
this was actually a serious relationship
and the wife knew about it and
apparently was tolerant of this
relationship either was back-and-forth
between them but when he was with little
little paid the bills and supposedly it
was so that aisle arose the young
handsome guy who would kind of bring
home young handsome men for a little to
engage with as well because he was also
gay so I think that he was kind of you
know the one who was able to get other
people yeah I mean it’s a it wasn’t a
great picture from the start of their
arrangement but dubbed the highway
killer Eiler killed an estimated to
young men many of whom were found
near highways he disposed of their
bodies on the side of highways Robert
David little was also charged with
murder as an accomplice and at least one
of these murders but he was acquitted of
all the charges and returned his
University position when zelner came
onto the case it was at the part where i
lo was in his appeals and she worked
hard to broker a deal with prosecutors
and at first i lose family I mean they I
looked at the footage and they were you
know they defended him and said that he
couldn’t have done this and whatnot but
I allure actually confessed to Kathleen
that he had committed a number of these
murders and he said that he would reveal
the names of his other victims if they
would take the death penalty off the
table because he had been sentenced to
death for that one murder so Kathleen
Zellner went and started brokering these
deals and it had to happen with
different prosecutors because there were
actually many jurisdictions it wasn’t
just in Indiana it was a couple of
Midwestern states where the bodies were
found so she went to work and she got
most of the prosecutors to agree but
there was one who really wouldn’t and
the deal ultimately fell through and
Eyler would died of aids-related
complications in prison in but what
happened after that was also very unique
so one year after his death Kathleen
Zellner held a press conference in which
she revealed the names of Eilers other
victims she said that I’ll erm ain’t
aend the whole time that Robert David
little the professor he lived with was
absolutely an accomplice in several of
the murders also even the ones he was
not he still knew about them and I’ll
erm ain’t aim that little actually
committed one of the murders himself and
zelner revealed this information as well
at the press conference
how was she allowed to do that isn’t
there like attorney-client privilege so
I’m glad you asked that because that’s
exactly what I thought he gave her
permission to do so so he went he said
when I die you could yes he said when he
died I guess she had said it was like
the only redeeming act he thought he
could give was to at least give the
families their you know their their
remains and and what happened to their
loved ones so that’s why she was allowed
to at that time Kathleen Zellner vowed
that she would never work again for
someone she thought was guilty that she
would only work to defend the innocent
you know it’s interesting to teach I
teach serial killers and I actually
didn’t know Larry Eiler so I fell down
such a rabbit hole with this when I’m
looking at everything and especially the
connection with the the professor and he
stood trial and he was acquitted and you
know it’s funny because when you started
talking about him I just assumed it was
going to be a wrongful conviction case
and then when you said he killed
twenty-something people I’m like how do
you get wrongfully convicted of being
seriously although you know what I’m
like side note that Atlanta monster
remember they say he has a wrongful
conviction so I don’t know but anyway
okay so Kathleen’s you know got a
thriving practice a few years after the
Eyler case zelner took on a wrongful
conviction case for Joseph burrows have
you ever heard his name I do but I don’t
remember the case Burroughs was awaiting
execution for the murder of an year
old retired farmer named William Doolin
in an attempted robbery
what happened here – so how did they
know this was an attempted robbery of
this year old well these two other
characters are coming to play Chuck Geon
and Gale Potter who is going to play a
very integral role in this case
attempted to cash a $, check of
William Doolin’s but the bank employee
this being like a small town recognized
immediately that this wasn’t the guy
this wasn’t the old farmer so they
called the police because they knew
William dulann well authorities knew
Gale Potter as a local cocaine dealer
who had been arrested previously she’d
been arrested for drug dealing she was a
drug dealer that day when authorities
you know went to talk to her she had
visible cuts and bruises on her you know
the cops bring her in and they’re
grilling her essentially interrogating
her but scaring her
so much so that she falsely implicates
Joseph burrows who she said was a
collector of drug debt money so
basically this was a short thing that
happened the cops are like tell us who
did it
we know that you’re involved in this
somehow but the cops didn’t think
because she’s a woman and I love that we
look at this or gender lens that she’s
capable of this crime right so they
pressure her and she very quickly turns
over Burroughs
name so who was burrows
[Music]
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well he’s a guy who’s got a history of
offenses also though none of them are
violent but he was like a very big burly
looking guy and he kind of fit the bill
like if you look at the pictures of them
and I always encourage people to go
ahead and look he’s big and he looks
tough and I think coupled with his
record the police are seeing the most
logical suspect to them like he looks
like what a murderer is going to look
like so he is arrested and they have
another witness ralph fry but it became
obvious later that ralph fry his
testimony in his statement was
absolutely riddled with inaccuracies but
he also pointed to burrows as the killer
fry and potter so this is ralph fries
the second one is in Gale Potter their
stories didn’t match either I have to
tell you the list goes on and on with
the inaccuracies and the problem in this
death penalty case
enter Kathleen Zellner she took on the
case but she took it on kind of
reluctantly I believe she still kind of
had a bad taste in her mouth from what
happened with the Ayler case most people
had focused on Ralph Fry’s testimony and
trying to work with that like where the
problems were with Fry’s testimony but
zelner actually was really smart she
skillfully worked the prosecution’s star
witness Gail Potter the woman so zelner
started visiting Gail Potter in prison
and just asking her questions and you
know I think she I don’t think she
thought Potter was gonna keep meeting
with her whatnot or keep talking to her
she definitely describes Potter as
having antisocial characteristics for
sure but Potter kept meeting with her
and she kept listening to Kathleen and
during one of these meetings
zelner actually said to her you know I
think it was a woman who shot William
Doolin and Potter really admired Sellner

  • she came to admire her and her
    response was you’re right
    a woman did do it I shot Bill Doolin so
    she actually admitted to Kathleen
    Zellner that she was the real
    perpetrator of the crime yeah and soon
    as she’s cutting a deal she trying to go
    to deal with at this point
    zelner is burrows attorney she can’t
    offer her anything she’s advocating for
    her client but what would happen was
    that not only did she admit it but
    zelner skillfully got her to commit –
    and she confessed this on the stand
    and what happened burrows was released
    in he was considered a wrongful
    conviction I’m clear as to why this
    happened but maybe it was because it was
    early apparently he was in like a
    multi-million dollar lawsuit but then
    settled for $, for his wrongful
    conviction
    you probably know what happened yeah
    because a lot of times you know when you
    are gonna file a suit you’re gonna go
    big and then it’s like in negotiations
    you go back and forth till you settle on
    something you’ll see a lot of times they
    start in the millions and they end up in
    a couple hundred thousands okay I know I
    guess there’s bigger settlements now –
    I’m assuming because it was and
    this was like really pre wrongful
    conviction compensation and it sounds
    like it wasn’t a DNA exoneration which
    is why it’s probably not as famous yeah
    okay you know she was really hailed for
    her skills in getting I mean getting
    someone to confess to the murder
    Oh interestingly what happened at Gale
    Potter I know we say interestingly all
    the time though but I was like really
    curious like okay so this woman goes on
    the stand that admits like when’s she
    gonna be tried with murder right nope
    they went perjury at the very least for
    first very smart Amy that’s right she
    wound up serving five years for perjury
    or sentenced to five years for perjury
    but that would bother going after her
    for the murder nope and that happens
    though also we know in wrongful
    conviction cases when the prosecutor and
    law enforcement they don’t believe it’s
    a even with her admitting it they might
    still believe now she just said that um
    she feels bad or you know any means so
    Gayle Potter didn’t really wind up doing
    much time at all but Kathleen Zellner
    really showed you know how incredibly
    smart she was so Kathleen Zellner has
    gone on to represent a number of other
    people but I would want to talk about
    two more cases the ones that maybe
    people know about so the first one
    another notable case of Kathleen’s is
    the Ryan Ferguson case I believe Amy you
    know this one quite well so if I get
    anything wrong here I’m gonna just step
    in and just correct me okay sure I met
    Ryan a couple of times at the Innocence
    Network conference he’s a very nice guy
    that’s right does he attend all
    regularly yep and is he usually a
    featured speaker there um sometimes
    sometimes he’s just there a lot of
    exonerees just go to you know for the
    camaraderie and also they attend
    different sessions with other
    genres and right okay let’s talk about
    Ryan Ferguson for people who don’t know
    him at age Ryan Ferguson was arrested
    for the murder of sports editor Kent
    Haight hold a man that Ryan didn’t know
    Kent had been beaten to death in the
    parking lot behind where he worked and
    an eyewitness reported seeing two
    college-age kids outside near Kent’s car
    that night Ryan and his friend Charles
    Erickson were in the area
    attending Halloween parties Ericson had
    apparently a lot of drugs in his system
    so he’d done a couple different types of
    drugs and he subsequently became
    convinced that he was somehow involved
    in the murder so he turned himself in to
    the police
    claiming that he had dreamlike visions
    of what he and Ryan had done Ryan when
    they pulled him in did talk to the
    police but he absolutely maintained his
    innocence from the beginning said
    absolutely not I was not involved I know
    nothing about this Erickson actually had
    no memory of the evening either but by
    trying time he had a story about him and
    Ryan for which he was offered a deal his
    story was obviously kind of convincing
    at trial a janitor also positively
    identified Ryan as being in the parking
    lot so you have an eyewitness
    identification here and you have Ryan’s
    friends saying yes we did this together
    a confession and I went as
    identification which are two of the
    reasons why most wrongful convictions
    happen right so again Ryan’s a trial he
    maintained his innocence but he was
    convicted of the murder and sentenced to
    years in prison despite there being
    no physical evidence whatsoever to tie
    him to the crime later both Erickson and
    the janitor recanted saying that they
    had both lied due to police coercion
    so Erickson was confused I think you
    know he was kind of convinced as to a
    story and locked into a story that he
    would tell but the janitor why would he
    lie right that was what I wondered so do
    you know this was something about him
    there was like a picture of the boys in
    the newspaper after they were already
    arrested that’s something that may have
    been the case but the reason why he lied
    and why he was so easily coerced is
    because he said that he felt scared by
    the police because he was actually a red
    a sex offender and so he was like
    terrified of the police and you know I’m
    sure it was biased account to her so he
    felt that kind of pressure so they both
    took the stand later they both said that
    they lied Ferguson was released and
    exonerated after serving nine years in
    prison maybe closer to ten as I
    understand it but I I also when I was
    reading some of the articles saw that he
    wound up staying they didn’t release him
    right away so after the testimony of
    these two they got on the stand and they
    recanted Zellner said she thought
    Ferguson would be released pretty
    quickly because that’s usually the way
    that would work but I think he was still
    in prison for another year or so I think
    it took really quite some time but he
    was exonerated and Netflix released the
    documentary dream killer about the case
    and if you want to watch it in which
    zelner is also featured and Ryan
    Ferguson goes down as one of her one of
    her exonerations Amy you want to add
    anything to that I’m not sure I missed
    anything you did a good good summary
    there but thank you just something that
    shows Ryan’s character is even though
    Erickson implicated him he’s actually
    fighting for Chris Erickson is in prison
    serving years right right now
    actually I think it’s for lying under
    oath but either way ryan is trying to
    get him out even though he screwed him
    so bad I did not know that so I saw that
    Erickson he got years in the plea
    deal that was the original plea deal in
    which he said because he said he
    committed the murder – he said that they
    did it together so I had no idea that
    Ferguson was trying to help get him out
  • so although he did the plea deal for
    I think even if if Ryan is exonerated
    based on the fact that this crime didn’t
    occur that way then that would also mean
    that Erickson probably is innocent as
    well right so they really in fact can
    only hold him then on lying under oath I
    would think the same thing – if he’s
    exonerated although no if you think
    about this way they could say like
    Erickson committed the crime yeah
    Ferguson is exonerated and Erickson
    dragged him in sighs yes I think
    Ferguson he knows he was with Erickson
    so I think that’s why he’s so adamant on
    helping him because he’s feels bad for
    the skin he’s like this kids clearly all
    screwed up because he didn’t do it I was
    with him that night right I think you’re
    right though I think that really
    indicates his character I’ve also seen
    him speak I’ve not met him like you have
    but I’ve watched him
    and I mean he really seems like he’s
    just seems like such solid character and
    and his family and you know he just
    seems he seems like a good person yeah I
    was gonna say his family’s often at
    those conferences as well and they’re a
    really amazing group of people and they
    really advocated for him and stood by
    him and he had a great team was he’s one
    of the lucky ones he had a great team of
    people and one of the lucky ones who had
    Kathleen Zellner to represent him so
    let’s talk about Steven Avery because
    most of our listeners will probably know
    Kathleen Zellner because of the Steven
    Avery case and I’m not sure any of you
    watched making of a murderer and making
    of a murderer part two I’m embarrassed
    to say I’ve never watched it and in its
    entirety I’ve seen bits and pieces I’ve
    read the book so right you know I know
    the case well but okay so zeldor
    Kathleen Zellner doesn’t come in until
    part two where she is actually handling
    his appeal I know a lot of our listeners
    watch watch this but for those of you
    who may be fuzzy on some of the details
    we don’t know the whole story I’m just
    gonna give you a brief background on
    Avery’s case Steven Avery was wrongfully
    convicted for a brutal rape a crime for
    which he was exonerated with DNA
    evidence after spending years in
    prison Amy what’s the average for
    exonerees for the time they spend in
    prison
    I don’t know that offhand there’s
    different because some estimates only
    include DNA exonerees some include
    everyone but it ranges around years
    sometimes as high as but I would say
    if I had things okay that’s actually
    what I thought the number was so good
    yeah I know Amy you know the case so
    maybe you could give us a little more
    background on the wrongful conviction
    and exoneration not surprisingly because
    we know eyewitness identification errors
    are the number one factor in wrongful
    convictions the victim picked them from
    a lineup but what I find the most
    striking here is he had an alibi not
    only did he have a receipt he had eye
    witnesses who vouched for him regardless
    he was still convicted of rape and
    attempted murder and something else
    about this case I want to point out is
    the real perpetrator actually remained
    free and he ended up raping more women
    and if you look at the pictures they
    actually did look alike as we see that
    they looked a lot alike I agree
    thank you for that background yeah I
    forgot he had eyewitnesses I mean
    it’s just you don’t think this kind of
    thing is gonna happen but obviously our
    list
    and other people in this area know it
    does just two years after Avery’s
    release he was arrested for the murder
    of Teresa Halbach a young photographer
    who went missing after her trip to the
    Avery salvage yard she had planned to
    take some photos of a vehicle for our
    auto trader magazine how Beck’s remains
    her buried bones were later found on the
    Avery property along with her vehicle
    and other items and Avery was arrested
    in the course of the investigation
    police interrogated Avery’s nephew then
    year-old Brendan Dassey
    who had a low IQ and who would confess
    during a very questionable interview
    that he and his uncle raped Teresa
    before murdering her and burning her
    body have you ever seen the dossier
    interviews yes I have I mean it’s it is
    hard to watch it it’s it is hard to
    watch and I encourage people to watch it
    because it’s hard to watch them because
    you need to see and you need to see how
    you feel about this so dasi and Avery
    were both convicted of the murder but in
  • his conviction was overturned but
    later the appellate court restored the
    conviction and the US Supreme Court
    refused to hear his case which means
    that Brendan Dassey
    is out of legal options he’s done with
    his appeals process I mean there’s
    really not much more that’s going to
    happen for him
    I mean I’m shocked I was really shocked
    the supreme court actually refused to
    hear the case I really really believed
    they would I do think he may have a case
    similar to Santoya Brown where he might
    start gaining a lot of you know a lot of
    footing a lot of support people standing
    behind him and maybe it’ll get the
    attention and maybe clemencies in his
    future no yeah I guess that would be as
    only he’s out of Appeals but you’re
    right I think there’s been heavy strong
    interest in his case a lot of sympathy
    towards him and I could see that as an
    option so thank you for pointing that
    out
    okay Avery has always maintained his
    innocence and zelner said she took on
    his case because she was troubled by the
    revelation of certain damning evidence
    that did not appear during the initial
    searches of Avery’s home but was only
    later discovered by police officers same
    police officers just so you know who
    were part of the civil suit that Avery
    filed against them for his wrongful
    conviction
    million dollars that’s a that’s a
    strong incentive you know they searched
    his his I think it was his trailer like
    a mobile they searched his mobile home
    and initially didn’t find Teresa’s keys
    but then on a second search when they
    came back they find a single key not her
    keys but like a single key and it was
    like hmm
    so zelner said she was watching making
    of a murderer and she was like I was a
    little bit troubled by some of the
    things that I saw here and she said that
    she believed he was innocent so she took
    on his case and she’s been making some
    progress with this case there’s been a
    little bit of a back-and-forth like
    she’s gotten some hearings that you know
    he probably wouldn’t have gotten without
    her but there was a request so I think
    she was granted a motion to examine
    Teresa halbachs remains but then I
    believe that the remains are the bones
    the police turned it over to Teresa’s
    family so I think the motion is kind of
    and I’m not really sure what’s happening
    exactly with that it’s kind of an icky
    gray area right here I’m not sure if you
    know that it’s very confusing right she
    all I can say is that she’s still in the
    appeals process they still have upcoming
    hearings so I mean Avery’s got a great
    shot if he’s with Kathleen Zellner
    somebody once asked me what does when in
    direct appeal what does Melanie McGuire
    need and I’m like she needs a confession
    from someone else where Kathleen Zellner
    to represent her because I can’t I can’t
    think of what else the case but Kathleen
    Zellner
    only represents people she believes her
    innocent I don’t know if she believed
    that Melanie says I know that’s a great
    question I would also like to say for
    this I know a Kathleen I did I reached
    out I sent her an email just to see if
    she would be interested in interviewing
    um I haven’t heard back from her but I
    suspect she’s busy yeah you know
    exonerating people left and right
    quickly before we get to the end here
    but I always wondered what’s your
    opinion of if do you have an opinion of
    Avery in terms of his innocence or guilt
    so the fact that Kathleen Zellner took
    the case made me believe more strongly
    in his innocence because I trust her
    judgment but I go back and forth you
    also I don’t know if you came across the
    fact that there was like a vial of blood
    from an earlier case his blood was on
    file because he had a prior record
    even before the wrongful conviction yes
    and they found that it had
    unsealed and punctured I saw that too
    but then they like tested the blood and
    they couldn’t find a preservative but
    then someone said it wouldn’t
    necessarily show up so there’s a lot of
    things that could be shady but could
    also be nothing also there’s something
    about the jurors like there were two
    jurors that had relatives that worked
    for the county in which she had the
    lawsuit pending like one was like a
    sheriff’s father and someone else and I
    don’t remember that as well the case is
    such a rabbit hole I don’t know and then
    there was something not long ago where
    like an inmate confessed to killing
    Teresa how back did you hear that one
    I’ve heard that too but they didn’t
    think it give it much credibility you
    know usually you can’t give those things
    much credibility so I go back and forth
    I think if I had to say I would say I
    think he’s innocent
    because I think corruption exists and as
    much as I would hate to believe it could
    exist at this level I think it could
    we’ve seen yes we’ve seen cases in which
    it does and I think when someone’s
    wrongfully convicted it doesn’t look
    good for the police department and those
    involved put on top of that not always
    your reputation harms now you have this
    huge lawsuit pending right I mean that’s
    that’s motive okay yeah that’s a fair
    opinion people ask me this all the time
    about Avery because it’s the one that
    beauty thing so I’m with you I actually
    go back and forth all the time to be
    honest I can make a justification on
    both sides
    I believe the entire process is tainted
    it’s like a dirty trial a dirty K
    everything is tainted about this but if
    I had to go with like if someone was
    forcing me to to make an opinion I would
    actually go with guilty and I’m not sure
    that I have the anything other than just
    a gut feeling at the end so the reason I
    also when I go you know like I said I
    went back and forth a little too is if
    he was wrongfully convicted for years
    you know I did some of my research on
    the effects of those who are wrongfully
    convicted yes and individuals who are
    wrongfully convicted obviously we could
    talk for hours about what that does so
    an individual so it doesn’t surprise me
    when exonerees end up committing crimes
    because of what they’re dealing with
    right but it’s rare that they commit a
    violent crime right that right though I
    don’t know okay that’s fair that’s fair
    enough hey you’re the expert in this
    area so Steven Avery is with Kathleen
    Zellner and I would say that you know
    she’s going to give him the best
    shot that he’s going to have a you know
    exoneration if it’s meant to be I will
    just sum up with a couple things she you
    look at how many awards and the
    recognition she’s gotten it’s a long
    list it makes you feel like shit about
    yourself it makes me feel very under
    accomplished
    she’s the only recognized trial attorney
    to win five multi-million dollar jury
    trials in under one year if that’s
    correct one year and she was kind of
    flaws a about it like I saw something
    that she was kind of like well everyone
    was ready to go to trial I kind of just
    had to do it and that’s how it happened
    she’s been named top ten attorneys one
    of America’s greatest lawyers top
    trial lawyers Person of the Year in
    by Chicago lawyer magazine most
    influential women in the United States
    and the list goes on and on Kathleen
    Zellner is a rock star and I hear that
    she is a lovely person as well Emily
    Nestor met her in an airport did you
    know that no I didn’t are you kidding
    can you imagine being a true-crime
    podcaster and seeing Kathleen Zellner I
    mean I don’t want to say this like this
    but I would die I mean my heart would
    stop I don’t think I could contain the
    excitement but um I mean in the end so
    usually we get to the end we do like our
    opinion our opinion here is like I’m
    sure she’ll Kathleen Zellner is
    inspirational to me she gives me hope
    that justice is possible but even so
    it’s it’s so difficult and I think
    zelner has got a real tenacity I mean
    she’s really special and I really hope
    that her work inspires other young
    eternities to trailblaze with her and
    Kathleen if you are listening please
    call us if you ever come to New York
    we’d love to treat you to dinner please
    make our dreams come true Kathleen thank
    you so much for listening and I hope you
    enjoyed the episode we’ll see you next
    time thanks Amy Thank You Megan
    women in crime is written and hosted by
    Megan sax and Amy schlossberg our
    producer and editor is James Varga our
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[Music]

sources for today’s episode include an
article by Esquire magazine a Chicago
Tribune article in Newsweek article the
dream killer documentary and a Los
Angeles Times article