Episode Transcript
The below text transcription was is intended for audience reference and search purposes. Because it is generated automatically by computer, please forgive mis-translations, spelling and the lack of really any structured grammar.
As the country faces a crisis
in race and justice the cases we
discussed today have helped bring our
attention to some of the most
significant in justices and important
issues but what can we actually do about
it.
[Music]
This is episode 19: Race and Crime in
America
[Music]
Megan we have some new patrons actually
we have two former students I saw that
so I’m excited about all them but the
two former students that was so cool
all right so shout outs to special shout
outs in Megan Gelman hi Megan
I had Megan in intro and she was a
freshman I’ve had Megan in several of my
classes and she is just such an
outstanding student and she’s always
just she was so positive she always
brought something special to my
classroom so Thank You Megan agreed
thank you so much Megan and we have rose
rose Weston I know I saw rose too I’ve
had Rose also several times and I can
tell you that she is a serious academic
and Rose was already at a at a graduate
level at the undergraduate she elevated
all of my classes as well so these are
two really accomplished students amazing
thank you guys so much I got to take
care of their old professors had a
question I believe right Megan so Rose
did have a question which related to my
women in crime class so she asked or she
said that she didn’t recall learning
about the issues that female juveniles
go through or the crimes they’re likely
to get involved with so are their needs
and crimes the same as adult women our
female juveniles tried as adults at the
same rate as male juveniles for the same
crimes and what kind of services and
policies would need to be implemented to
aid female juveniles who are offenders
that differ from adult women so a
multi-part question I did briefly cover
this but I can tell you that
historically females were tried for
different types of offenses more often
for those status offenses where they
were looked at as like bad girls
breaking the rules and that still holds
true they are now tried more for some of
the crimes that males are but they’re
also tried more for aggressive female
crimes like you know that historically
they weren’t tried for simple assaults
but yes now they are it’s like
zero-tolerance we’re gonna try you for
the same things that we’re gonna try
males s so I would say females are still
tried more often for status offenses is
that also a function of a change in
domestic violence laws yes absolutely
so when it used to be it’s mandatory
arrest for all parties now and so that’s
why both adult females and juvenile
females
are tried more often for these offenses
that historically they were never tried
for are their needs different than males
yes because they do mirror the adult
female population and in the adult
female population in prisons and in the
system we know that they suffer much
more or more extensive physical sexual
abuse and mental health issues and often
dependency issues so there are
definitely those same needs or they
tried as often for adult crimes as males
no but that’s probably because there are
also less of them there you know they
are they’re not typically held or
they’re not the typical offenders males
are still perpetrating those more
serious crimes more frequently and
finally what kind of services and
policies would need to aid female
juveniles that could be a whole class
that could be an absolute whole class
I’m gonna have to say that it’s not
going to be so much different than adult
females they really need strong mental
health counseling and they probably need
substance abuse counseling as well
strong education so probably a lot of
the same things that the adult females
need but it goes you know earlier
prevention will help later on so thank
you for your question rose and I hope we
answered it thank you
I also want to say hello and thank you
to ally Briganti from San Clemente James
says that’s a dream town to live in
sounds fabulous and a thank you to Katie
Price Thank You Katie Thank You Katie
let’s see we have Jody Durr who’s in the
Coast Guard thank you so much for your
service right Thank You Jody and she
also wrote in with a question what led
you to having an interest in choosing a
career in criminology and are there any
cases you studied that have always stuck
with you alright I’ll go first so for me
I’ve just always been interested in
psychology I’ve always been interested
in social justice issues so I think for
me being interested in psychology and
social justice issues it just seemed
like a natural fit to be interested in
criminology and I did study forensic
psychology for a while so that’s kind of
that bridge as well I have a lot of
cases that stick with me for me it’s I
would say it has to be death row
exonerees you know specific cases but in
general when people are wrongfully
convicted of course that’s the most
egregious
carriage of justice but on top of that
to sentence someone to death or
something they didn’t do it’s just I’d
never stopped thinking about those cases
so I was interested in criminal law at a
young age actually very young age from
watching bad television with my mom
watching la law and it stuck with me
forever but my interest just kind of
morphed when I after I worked in a
criminal law firm or I didn’t work in a
criminal law firm I worked in a civil
one and I just wasn’t that interested in
becoming a lawyer but I was interested
in the field so I kind of stuck with it
and pursued my education and careers in
the field of criminal justice there are
a million cases that have stuck with me
I I obsess over JonBenet still all the
time because I just need to know who did
it the brother I seriously I don’t know
but I do obsess over that one because we
spent so much time on direct appeal I am
still obsessed with Melanie McGuire and
finding out the actual truth of what
happened and very much obsessed as well
with or the one that sticks with me
Darlie routier because I she’s on death
row and I really feel that she’s
innocent so thank you for your question
Jodie and thank you for your service and
lastly we have a fellow Jersey girl Mary
Dee thank you Mary
thanks Mary Mary had a question right
here’s Mary’s question since you were
both immersed in the crime world as
criminologist and creating crime content
does it ever get emotionally or mentally
to much do you ever need to take a step
back away from crime I in general I
don’t need to because I think I am so
passionate but there are certain cases
that bother me so we just covered shantu
Scherer and I had nightmares about
chanda and it really truly bothered me
upset me I was crying when I was writing
that and I’m not a you know cry or
sensitive there are times where people
will also talk to me about their crimes
and how they feel about them and the
genuine remorse they feel and how upset
you could see what they’ve done to
themselves and ruined their lives and
the consequences they feel and I do feel
I do feel badly at time so there are
times for sure when I get emotional but
I would never step away from this
passion yeah so for me creating the
episodes I can some house distance
myself from it and I don’t ever feel
like I need to take a step away from it
however working in prison similar
to what you were alluding to there’s
been several times that I Drive home
from teaching inside crying because it’s
just you meet some of the kindest people
who are probably gonna die in prison
so yeah just being in our criminal
justice system to me that’s the
difficult part so thank you so much to
our new patrons today’s episode is
different it is a special one for us in
which we are going to tackle race and
crime using cases mostly focusing on
females here because that is what we do
on women in crime but using these
individual stories in this episode to
illustrate some of the problems and some
of the solutions of racism in our
criminal justice system Amy is
particularly suited to lead this episode
today given that she teaches racing
crime and other related courses we’ve
both received a number of emails and
comments asking about this current
crisis though and maybe Amy you can
start by giving us sort of the
background or a brief overview of the
history of race in the u.s. system great
so before I get there I just want to say
that we’d like to use this episode as an
opportunity to have a meaningful
discussion on race and crime in America
before we get to the cases though and
discuss the things that we can
practically do to try and improve the
system
we’d like to touch briefly on the issues
that have plagued the black community
historically
because Megan as you know this issue is
not limited to the criminal justice
system racism has been a systemic
feature of American society since its
inception so when we talk about systemic
racism what we’re talking about is
racism that infects a very structure of
our society and really that’s present in
all facets of our society I think that’s
true Amy I’m sorry before you get into
it I think one of the things that when
we lay the foundation in our classes is
that we also try to start even though we
specialized in the criminal justice
system we try to start by laying the
foundation and explaining how like a
sociological point of view how does how
is this present in the other social
structures of our system yes and I
always say really you can’t teach about
the criminal justice system without
addressing race you can’t I can’t
imagine any criminologist does so we
know in education we see a disparity for
example school curriculum claims to be
inclusive REM represented
however despite of course some positive
changes research shows us that the
perspective is often white and
middle-class and tends to ignore
historical and current power imbalances
and also not to mention the
disproportionate way that black children
are treated in school what do you mean
by that black children are for example
three times more likely to be suspended
and not only are we suspending these
children we’re suspending them for minor
infractions that non black children
would not they would not have the same
punitive reactions to okay thank you we
can also look to healthcare and housing
discrimination we could look to wealth
and employment gaps as an example white
families we know hold % of the
nation’s wealth and the unemployment
rate consistently is extremely higher
for black people so while we can spend
several episodes talking about all of
the disparities in all of these areas of
course we’re going to focus on our
criminal justice system the United
States in effect operates two distinct
criminal justice systems one for wealthy
people and another for poor people and
people of color Megan have you read
Michelle Alexander’s book the new Jim
Crow of course I have it but I have not
read the whole thing yet okay well I’m
sure you will be reading it I always see
it on your bookshelf though I know so I
really encourage everyone to read this
book I make my students read it I have
made my students read this book since
the book first came out because it is
such an important read it really focuses
on systemic racism arguing that it’s
embedded in our criminal justice system
and of course other government policies
but it really has been around since the
civil rights movement and essentially
Michelle Alexander argues that as the
title suggests mass incarceration really
serves the same purpose as slavery once
did and then Jim Crow laws did as well
of course the result has been millions
of black Americans who are behind bars
and denied the very rights that they
fought so hard for during the civil
rights movement thank you I know that
books a great one and I know that at the
end of this episode I think we have some
other recommended readings and
documentaries for people who are going
to be interested in going further with
us yes we definitely do but every one
your homework is to first read the new
Jim Crow
it okay alright so as white Americans I
don’t know about you Megan but I don’t
usually feel the need to worry about
being monitored by the police I’ve never
really worried about that either
no especially because I was a probation
officer too so I was on the opposite end
in some ways but unfortunately the
day-to-day reality for black people is
quite different and we know this because
we talked to our non-white students and
I love teaching race and crime because I
love hearing the reality of everyday
life from these students we know black
people are more likely to be stopped by
the police than any other race and we’re
talking about traffic stops and street
stops police are also more likely to
threaten non-white people and to use
force now we know that some police
tactics are more discriminatory than
others for example Megan you know about
stop and frisk I’m sure I do know about
stop and frisk that is when a police
officer can stop someone who they are
suspicious of looking dangerous and
maybe have committed a crime and they
are allowed an outer clothing pat-down
not a full-on search but an outer
clothing pat-down yeah and just to
extend on that it’s supposed to be non
intrusive but talk to any black person
who has been at the other end of one of
these stop and frisk I don’t think any
of them will tell you that it is non
intrusive so Megan as we teach in our
classes right Terry versus Ohio is when
the Supreme Court said that individuals
can be stopped based on reasonable
suspicion and as we know that is
extremely subjective and that’s when the
issues come in the issue is subjective
Terry V Ohio just for people who know is
and it was an off-duty police
officer who observed people who were
actually casing a jewelry store and
possessed weapons and so you know he
stopped them and he made kind of an a
frisk and he did find firearms and the
court said okay what he did wasn’t
technically a violation of Fourth
Amendment but I’ve heard them and this
is hotly debated and let me just also
say that in my one of my books I can’t
remember if it’s the corrections or the
intro to Criminal Justice one I did a
section on stop and frisk and when I
went to all these oral histories and
narratives and I read some of the most
devastating stop and frisks you don’t
think much of it you think it’s
no big deal until you read what some
humiliation and actual physical harm
people were subjected to yep and when
you look at how it affects juveniles and
women you know it’s we get into even
more issues so we know Megan that most
practices are state specific for our
listeners who don’t know about this a
lot of you know the state police have
jurisdiction to decide how they want to
operate so I want to just take a moment
and talk about stop and frisk in New
York City thankfully New York City has
dramatically reduced their use of stop
and frisk but in which was really
the peak of the city’s use of this
practice black residents in New York
City were eight times more likely to be
stopped by police than white residents
and times more likely to be frisked
so we know that this was being this was
being used disproportionately and we
also know that the use of force was in
% of stops of black people but only
% of stops of white people so we had a
time when there was no oves but there
was no oversight on this either so the
difference now is that you know when
this went through the courts by the way
was litigated in one of the federal
courts in which I worked in in my days
as a probation officer and worked for
one of those judges and now there is
much stronger oversight over it which if
you agree with sup and frisk you don’t
at least there should always have been
oversight over the policy to make sure
it’s operating appropriately
yeah and thankfully we have come a long
way with that but we have many other
issues we can turn our attention to sure
we’ve also heard of this term driving
while black yes people of color three
times as likely as White’s to be
searched when they are pulled over and
blacks are twice as likely as White’s to
be arrested when they are pulled over
when we talk about drug use we know that
whites and black used drugs at the same
at the same rate however of course they
are treated very differently and the
pattern for this treatment of black
males and females is very similar but we
know that you know since we were talking
about females here let’s talk about a
case have you heard of DeJoria Becton I
have heard of her she was a young
teenager who I know was
young teenager who has stopped
improperly at a party maybe you could
fill me in on the rest of the details
yeah so she was just years old she
was at a pool party and she was arrested
by the police in a violent episode in
Texas so what happened was the pool
party probably got a little out of
control I mean they’re kids hanging out
having fun right
some people were allegedly arguing and
the police were called to the scene and
of course they told the teenagers to
disperse and really you could just see
this video yourself thankfully we have
the ability to see a lot of this footage
so you can go see it yourself but what
happened was she was leaving the party
like she was told and a white male
officer grabbed her dragged her on the
ground by her hair and dragged her to
the sidewalk other officers drew their
weapons and Megan an officer put his
knee on her back what does that remind
you of
right we’re seeing this play out again I
I remember this now and I remember the
video and I think he actually put I am
pretty sure he applied his whole weight
both knees and I think she was a small
girl so both full knees on the back I
mean yeah and that’s gonna compress her
breathing
absolutely so needless to say you should
never put your knees in someone’s back
or on their neck right we shouldn’t even
have to be saying that out loud I think
so I think there’s any policy any
physical use of force that is going to
reduce or seriously constrict someone’s
ability to breathe should probably just
be prohibited absolutely great so the
Sharia would end up suing the department
and winning about $, settlement
and more importantly the police officer
who held her down he would resign I
would have liked to see maybe him face
some charges but we probably weren’t
there yet and it probably wasn’t it was
not a great reflection and not strong
policing but it wasn’t as serious as
what we’ve seen or obviously it wasn’t
fatal and I’m gonna guess that the
Department offered him the option but
not really the option you’re resigning
that’s how you handled that one yeah so
I think here just to end out this
section let’s just say let’s revise the
use of force let’s make our policies
more sensible yeah I think it was I was
teaching about this in my policy class
and I think it was Las Vegas reason
a couple years ago they revised their
policies to make them much clearer and
to also take out some of the more
harmful physical practices and I think
that other departments are following and
it’s just at a great time for almost all
departments who are not you know up to
date to revise their policies on use of
force that is definitely a practical
implication here let’s move on
to a rest obviously after contact with
police there may or may not be an arrest
but let’s talk about what it looks like
for black men and women black Americans
are % of all individuals arrested in
the United States now that my
that seemed like a high number however
that’s double their share of the total
population right because the total
population is % correct so it corrects
okay so I get it then yes
so it’s disproportionate when you
actually look at the numbers we can’t
just talk about percentages without
understanding the reference group
they’re coming from sure so why is this
happening it’s important to note where
are the police
hanging out because if you are looking
for you will find it Megan where do you
see a bigger police presence in Newark
New Jersey or in Madison New Jersey
where we teach I have seen very little
police presence in Madison so yes I see
a disproportionate police presence in
Newark which I pass by frequently yes so
the point here is the police are in
areas that are disproportionately
african-american and that is of course
feeding into why these numbers are so
high sure more than one in four people
arrested for drug violations in
were black but when you look at who’s
actually using and purchasing drugs the
numbers are the same for white and black
Americans right I knew that two blacks
are three point seven times more likely
to be arrested for a marijuana
possession as compared to whites and
again their marijuana uses is comparable
so we don’t even need to explain it now
pretty clear what’s going on here the
numbers are clear on this I think on
this issue so Megan I’m sure you have
heard of Sandra bland I have heard of
her and once again I don’t know the full
story on this one but I suspect you do
yeah I actually think we might want to
do an episode on just her case because
it’s so important okay just to give you
a brief view of what happened she was a
year old black woman and she was
found dead in a jail cell in in
Texas okay so what led to this well she
had been in jail for three days prior to
her suicide and the reason she was in
jail is because she could not gather the
bail money and I’m gonna tell you what
her offense was okay so I just want to
say some people might argue that since
she took her own life
the officers really bear no fault but
you really need to look beneath the
surface here because when you look at
the video evidence most of what Sandra
took herself with her cell phone it is
clear that the arresting officer
wrongfully arrested
Sandra Bland’s what started out as a
minor traffic violation escalated into
the officer forcefully removing bland
from her vehicle after a series of
back-and-forth verbal exchanges and the
officer demanded that she not record him
with her phone but thankfully she did
not comply and she kept recording that’s
how we have all this evidence he slammed
her to the ground and then he handcuffed
her facedown so the video evidence shows
some heated words between the two but
absolutely no instance of bland striking
the officer yet Sandra bland was held in
County Jail for three days on the charge
of assaulting the officer so some people
say of course she did not die at the
hands of the police but a lot of people
wonder should she have even been in jail
in the first place
wait so she committed suicide after
three days in jail and she was I’m sorry
you said she was incarcerated there
waiting or being held she couldn’t pay
bail which I know is a common problem
but there was no actual sign of her
raising a hand or I don’t sometimes yeah
like nothing nothing okay and of course
there was always gonna be people that
argue not everything was on camera but I
think there’s enough evidence here to
suggest a possible unlawful arrest at
the very least this actually brings us
to the next topic why was she not she
wasn’t able to afford bail she’s
nonviolent why are we holding her in
jail for three days well I have to tell
you this is one of my main areas of
research and what I can tell you is that
well first of all the perversion of our
system really is cash bail and it’s just
a fact that people are stuck in jail not
necessarily because they’re violent or
they’re a flight risk but they’re stuck
in jail because they don’t have the
money to pay for some people $
might as well be five million dollars if
they don’t have the resources just to be
clear on that
bail also when I’ve looked at all the
factors that affect bail you know
whether it’s race whether it’s other
factors we’ll see that black and
Hispanic offend ins are more likely
almost always to be denied any form of
bail they usually have when they are
granted bail they’re usually gonna have
a higher monetary bail set and then
there
are likely down the line to be detained
because they can’t in fact pay their
bail and what happens is a lot of times
unfortunately black defendants and
Latino defendants are assessed to be
higher safety and flight risks because
of you know they might have criminal
records and there there might be other
factors that are usually related
honestly to their socio-economic
disadvantages and and therefore there’s
a perception of them that is really an
unfair one so what usually happens is
that black Americans will wind up
incarcerated in local jails and this is
pre trial at a rate these numbers vary
just so you know but it’s going to be
actually at a rate of two to four times
that of non-hispanic white defendants
what’s the problem here well a the
problem is that there’s a disproportion
other– again disproportionately holding
minorities because they cannot afford to
pay bail but the other problem here
really relates to what that does down
the line and what I mean is that there
have been a lot of scholars and a lot of
people who study sentencing but I had
this great professor and when I was
getting my PhD dr. McCoy and she said I
don’t know why they start with
sentencing that is at the very end of
the process look at what pretrial does
so what pretrial does it is it affects
every single decision point down the
line and what that means is that if you
are detained prior to trial if you’re
held on bail you are going to have
increased odds of conviction and you’re
actually going to be most likely we’re
more likely to be sentenced to prison
and receive longer sentences so I I also
want to add that when people are held
before you’re supposed to be innocent
until proven guilty but you’re
essentially being held before you’re
convicted but something else that goes
along with this is if you’re being
detained you’re losing your job you’re
you know you can’t pay the bills you
might be a you know your you might lose
family
it’s the collateral consequences just
like we see a pond reentry we see upon
people after they serve time in jail
even for a short of two days if you have
a job that you can’t go to and you tell
your bosses cuz you’re in jail there’s a
good chance they’re not going to
welcome you back with open arms
absolutely true so it’s all the
consequences of this and now you know
that unfortunately black Americans
suffer this moreso so the policy
implication here at the end is really
get rid of cash bail it’s really unfair
and there are many other ways to ensure
people come back to court and there are
tons of other conditions that you can
also impose if you worry about their
safety and cash bail I’m happy to say
Amy a New Jersey and many other states
have reformed their bail we’re we’re in
a second bail reform movement so we are
actually seeing progress in this area
and I’m kind of proud to say that and
see that and I think you’re gonna see
many other states getting rid of or
drastically limiting cash bail
so while you’re talking about bail I
think it only makes sense to go into
plea bargaining oh my other so my other
research topic
I like to study the process so I look at
bail I look at plea bargaining and
sentencing so plea bargaining is really
the hallmark of justice most people
still think that there’s a trial because
of what we see on TV but that’s not true
ninety-five percent of cases will be
settled via a plea bargain in which the
defendant will be offered some type of
deal whether it’s less charges or less
time in exchange for pleading guilty I
interviewed a lot of people when I did
my own research who told me I just pled
guilty to get out of jail just to get
out of here when we talk about plea
bargaining the two players here are the
defense in the prosecution and that’s
these are the main players in a criminal
court case and and the judge but the
judge used to hold a lot more power and
we’re going to talk about why what
happens with the defense and the
prosecution you ever see the you know
the scales of justice outside they’re
supposed to be blind they’re supposed to
be kind of equal right yeah this is not
how it plays out because most
jurisdictions they don’t provide
adequate funding for their indigent
defense programs and this is like your
public defenders because what happens is
that most people in the system can’t
actually afford a lawyer
about percent of the people who are
in the system are considered indigent
and so you have public defenders with
excessively high caseloads they will
always tell you how inundated they are
and sometimes they have limited
experience and there’s a high rate of
burnout and for anyone who’s interested
in this there’s a great documentary
Gideon’s army on it I would totally
encourage you to look at it what the
realities are of being a public defender
so for a point of example in the
states allocated about . million
dollars in funding to the indigent
defense compared to million
categorized as prosecution and court
initiatives we’re over funding
prosecution if we wanted to make it a
fair system whereby defendants have a
fair right and so does the state we
would equal out the monetary
distribution in some states the most
senior defense attorney is paid ten to
fifteen thousand less than the most
junior prosecutor I know the disparities
personally and what prosecutors and
public defenders are paid and
prosecutors are paid a lot more
prosecutors are more likely to charge
people of color with crimes that carry
heavier sentences than their white
counterparts
federal prosecutors for example are
likely to charge black Americans with
offenses that carried a mandatory
minimum sentence then they’re similarly
situated white counterparts what we see
is a pattern and the pattern also stems
from what we’re going to talk about
mandatory sentencing and giving
prosecutors way way way too much power
but here’s what I’d like to bring up a
case example have you ever heard of and
that’s this one is one that I love have
you ever heard a me of Virgina Kelly I
think there was a movie about her yes
yes you’re so good and I think it’s cuz
I talked about it but I know the movie
was American violet and I’ve shown it in
several of my classes I think it’s about
ten or eleven years old now so I
probably have to find another one more
current but it it’s really great it’s
about this woman regina kelly who lived
in Hearne Texas and I think that’s just
north of Houston I’m not sure how far
but a little bit north and Regina was
wept up into a rate of our housing
project where she lived with her four
children in the year she was the
subject in this housing project was the
subject of a major DEA bust but the DEA
there first of all they were busting you
know disproportionately these types of
housing projects and they were working
on in this particular bust information
from a very unreliable confidential
informant Regina was arrested she was
held obviously because she could not
make bail and she was expected to plead
guilty to a drug crime like most of her
peers her public defender came in and
told her take the deal you’ll get a good
deal you’ll get out it’ll be quick it’ll
be easy but Regina really refused she
was really incensed by this she claimed
complete innocence not only that she
hadn’t done anything you know too
serious but she said she was not
involved whatsoever in selling drugs and
then she would not take a plea to
anything that she did not do so Regina
was a holdout while a lot of her peers
were taking these pleas she held out she
fought she got the ACLU on her side and
she was actually successful in getting
her charges dropped although it took
some time but this also evolved as they
learned about how unreliable the
confidential informant was but you also
have to realize the confidential
informant was also a black man who had
pressure on him to deliver so it’s you
know the systemic problem so what
happened to Regina
she won her charges were dropped and
Regina was successful in getting Texas
law changed and in what way it was
really and how they valued information
from confidential informants so that
part was great but the part that wasn’t
so great was that the DA the district
attorney at the time was reelected again
and he was part of that a huge part of
the problem and Regina said that she
really felt like she had to leave
because of the harassment from law
enforcement she didn’t feel comfortable
or safe anymore but she was successful
in getting some changes implemented and
she does a lot of talks and speeches and
and she knows she’s very she’s a very
powerful advocate here for a reform the
policy implication one of them is to get
rid of mandatory minimum sentencing and
that is basically where there is a
mandatory sentence that must be served
if it crimes and no judge can depart
from that for example used most
frequently drug laws there’s a -year
minimum for most of the serious
felonious I should even say suite
felonious there’s a -year minimum
sentence for a number of drug crimes
which means that if you are convicted of
that you’re serving the ten years and
there’s no option about it it also means
that the prosecutor has more power again
prosecutor will say if you don’t plead
guilty to something else I’m gonna
charge you with a mandatory minimum
crime and when you’re found guilty
you’re serving these years and no
judge is gonna be able to help you also
want to point out that these mandatory
minimums came during the war on crack
and cocaine and they are
disproportionately leveraged at the
black community and especially at the
time with crack users did you want to
add something Amy I really want to
emphasize that discretion going from the
judge to the prosecutor is a very
dangerous thing because judges hands are
tied and we see lots of judges who had
very had a lot of issues with this
because they would see a single mother
who was living on the street who was
really trying to provide for her
children and they could not even take
into consideration her individual
circumstance and I think some judges had
a real issue with that if you think
about it Amy the judge is supposed to be
the referee the arbiter the unbiased one
right there are the defense in the
prosecution are playing out against each
other so how can we put all the power in
the one side it was a vested interest
and take it away from the person who’s
supposed to referee those it doesn’t man
they have all the money it doesn’t make
any logical sense when it comes to
sentencing black males and females are
also I said it before sentenced more
harshly for crimes than their white
counterparts and especially when they
commit a violent crime against a white
victim which brings me to the case of
Lena Baker Lena was a black woman who
began work as a maid for her white male
employer Ernest Knight in and this
was in Georgia
she was only employed there for about a
year but Lena was sexually assaulted by
night on several occasions and she was
also held by him as a prisoner
in the home sometimes for days at a time
she reported also being beat by his son
several times and one night when she was
trying to escape her rapist Ernest
pulled out a pistol Lina grabbed it and
she shot him in self-defense
Lina immediately reported the incident
to the police who subsequently arrested
her for the murder Lina was tried by an
all-white male jury and they convicted
her of capital murder for which she was
convicted sentenced to death and
electrocuted however later years later
in Lina was granted a posthumous
pardon which means that she was pardoned
for her crime after her death because
they acknowledged that it was in
self-defense and there was also a
finding at that time that the Board of
Pardons at the time had the ability to
commute her sentence and lower it
instead of going for electrocution but
they went for the death penalty in this
controversial case do you know about the
baldest study that was used in the
Supreme Court case mcclewsky versus camp
I know McCluskey but what’s the baldest
study so this one analysis found that
defendants accused of killing white
victims were over four times more likely
to receive the death penalty than
defendants who were accused of killing
black victims so I think that case you
just shared really highlights that
disparity you know what I did know that
thank you for sharing that though I
forgot and yeah I think this case
absolutely does and now we’re we’re
going right down the line and I think
we’re moving from sentencing probably to
the correctional aspect sentencing for
it to Corrections and re-entry Amy you
want to take a little bit here yeah so
we know that black adults are much more
likely to be incarcerated than white
adults the numbers close says six times
more likely and among youth
african-americans are about four times
as likely to be committed to a secure
placement as whites does that mean like
a juvenile detention center yeah exactly
so that’s including juvenile detention
center or for those who are waived up to
adult okay
so mass incarceration of course leads to
mass reentry for those that are I guess
lucky enough so to speak to eventually
get out about how many people returned
home from prison a year early
here it’s something like I close says
, okay yeah I was gonna say
but that’s probably my number is dated
thank you the number is about .
million people that are under the form
of some sort of correctional facility
and I believe the number is about
, that are being released to
society so really it would be great if
we as a society really embrace these
individuals and try to help them reenter
society however unfortunately we do not
always do that mass incarceration of
course then leads to mastery entry and
when an individual returns to society
there is what is known as collateral
consequences which are additional civil
penalties that really attached to
criminal convictions so people with
criminal records face a host of
obstacles to reenter society even after
they have fully completed their term of
incarceration or Community Supervision
denied access to employment certain
licenses not being able to access
housing loans or student loans housing
discrimination it’s basically any
obstacle that hinders an individual from
being successful upon release and we
know that african-americans are exposed
to these collateral consequences at a
higher rate I remember just so you know
in the movie American violet regina
realizes that’s not who plays her but
she realizes that a lot of the people
who were arrested and pled guilty
quickly to get out are now no longer
allowed to live in the housing
development because that’s one of the
the losses if you plead guilty to a drug
crime you lose subsidized housing they
also could not access any more welfare
benefits such as food stamps or Medicaid
because that is also something else you
lose as a result and there are a number
of other scholarship opportunities
there’s there’s so many things that
people do not realize once they plead
guilty they’re going to lose later on
and this also becomes a catch-
especially if you’re on parole because a
lot of the conditions of your parole are
simply not possible to meet for example
you need somewhere to live but if
everyone that you have connection with
lives in say public housing in some
states you can’t live with them
you’re basically shut out from a lot of
employment opportunities but a condition
of your parole is to remain
loyd you have to meet a curfew but you
might only be able to get employment in
the night shift so we can see this time
and time again of situations where
people simply cannot meet their
conditions I saw this just personally I
saw this over and over again as a
federal probation officer and I saw what
people the expectations were not aligned
with what they could realistically
accomplish even those who were trying so
very hard to meet them they still could
not and then we punish them for it now I
know that you know both men and women
are facing these challenges but I think
that there are also are they’re not some
unique reentry challenges for women
there are but before we get to that I
just wanted to say that there’s a lot of
research on this but some studies say
that one in three black men have a
conviction on their record so we’re
dealing with a large segment of the
population and when we’re looking at the
percentage of african-american men who
are of voting age over % cannot vote
simply because they have a felony
conviction on their record and that’s
four times higher than white people
haven’t we talked about this ition how
it would have changed elections had this
percentage or had this segment of the
population being able to vote yep
there’s a great study that talks about
the likelihood that Gore would have been
elected right over a bush if in Florida
people with a felony conviction would
have been able to vote so yeah so there
are some unique reentry challenges for
women women are often mothers caregivers
and heads of households so once they’re
incarcerated their children often become
displaced and unfortunately often end up
in foster care and that’s a whole other
issue
a lot of times the income is desperately
needed by their families and that income
is now lost when these women are
incarcerated women also require certain
gender based services and treatment
research shows that they often suffer
from harsher social and economic
circumstances as compared to males and
for both men and women I want to also
just point out that these issues are
compounded because offenders are often
returning to neighborhoods that are
already facing economic disadvantages
and lack opportunities going back to
that cycle that catch- it’s really
hard for an individual to try to survive
after incarceration with all of these
barriers but there are things that we
actually can do so I think a great point
right now is maybe we talked about some
of the policy recommendations we’ve been
doing it as we go along but the causes
of these racial disparities in the
system they’re very complex and deeply
rooted however the good news is that
there are some things we can do to
reduce both the existence and the
effects of racial bias in the criminal
justice system it’s not going to
eliminate racism or it won’t necessarily
get to the whole root cause but we do
think that there are practical measures
that can certainly improve the situation
and I would say one of those things is
certainly at this point it’s time to end
the war on drugs the war on drugs cost a
lot of money and incarcerated a lot of
low-level offenders it was
disproportionately targeted at black
Americans and if we just scale back
arrests at this point which I think
we’re starting to do and we could also
invest in prevention and treatment in a
drug education which would be a great
thing at this point and going hand in
hand with that is to eliminate mandatory
minimum sentences I spend a lot of time
on this before but I just want to say
judges should be allowed to come in here
and adequately decide sentences and take
the power back from the prosecutors so
that’s another very very practical
outcome we can reduce the use of cash
bail as I said before we should only be
detaining people if they pose a
substantial flight risk or a substantial
safety risk but not because they can’t
afford to post bail right any so we
should definitely be able to modify and
you know what again good news here
there are states moving to do this yeah
I think that one of the issues when it
comes to a lot of these is states have
the authority in a lot of these areas
there’s no federal guidelines and
oversight really so we see some states
that are doing a really good job in
certain areas such as cash bail and some
that aren’t doing as good as a job
something we touched on a little earlier
is indigent defense services so we need
better funding and better oversight
actually I think federal government
support would be best here because a lot
of times local and state don’t have the
resources to better fund these defense
agencies but we need to address the
shortcomings of this the jurisdictions
that are failing to meet the established
guidelines such as reducing caseloads
and having more professional training
more support and more funds for people
that are trying to adequately defend
these individuals oh my gosh again
please watch Gideon’s army on this one
everyone this was this is a huge one and
I think one that is very topical at the
moment we need to develop and implement
training to reduce racial bias
particularly in our criminal justice
system obviously there’s going to be
bias at every level of the criminal
justice system and unfortunately a lot
of this bias is implicit which really
just means that it’s unconscious rights
it’s when we attribute certain qualities
to certain individuals without even
realize that without even realizing
we’re doing it so that differs from
explicitly being bias where you you’re
outwardly being racist and bias and you
realize you are implicit is this
unconscious or subconscious unconscious
so implicit racial bias is the
unconscious Otteson yeah you know we see
this at every level obviously police but
it doesn’t stop there we see it with
public defenders and prosecutors jury
members judges parole boards corrections
officers so obviously it’s really
difficult to eliminate or completely
eliminate racial bias at the individual
level but at least we can try to work
with believing scholars in the area of
implicit bias to try to develop some
training programs
or at least monitoring and of course
accountability absolutely we can go on
and on talking about policies but I
think it might be best to end with
addressing collateral consequences we
were just talking about that but a lot
of the limitations that we place on
individuals after incarceration are
actually counterproductive to effective
reentry and as we are and that’s why we
know within three years almost % of
individuals are going to be read because
we’re setting essentially setting them
up to fail States really they should
start by just allowing full democratic
participation of their citizens in other
words regardless of conviction status
people should be able to vote because we
know how important it is if you’re not
voting then you’re getting certain
people in office that are not doing the
right thing that don’t have your
community’s best interest at heart we
need to obviously allow people to vote
but we also need to look into the
employment restrictions education
housing we need to encourage reforms at
the state level to help support people
upon reentry and not hinder their
success and again there’s a practical
thing you can do practically you can ban
the box the question that asks have you
been convicted of a felony that usually
discriminates against people New
Jersey’s decided to ban that question
and this is another example of practical
policy reform things we can actually do
exactly but what can the individuals do
like an individual listening we’re
talking about things at the policy level
well first of all they can vote yeah and
and really you what you really need to
do is you need to take better accounting
of certainly local politics and ask
these questions if you care about them
ask your elected representatives when
they are running
how will they address mandatory minimums
will they specifically end the war on
drugs will they specifically abolish
solitary confinement will they you know
be very specific and get specific
answers and vote for the people who are
gonna do vote for the people who are
going to be closest in line with the
reforms that you think will reduce bias
you know we talked mostly about female
examples but as you all know because of
right now what’s going on with the
murder of George Floyd and other
african-american men we could have
easily done this episode on males as
well but regardless we know that racial
disparities in our system have
profound impact on the life of millions
of people in our society so what can we
do we we talked a little bit about
policy it’s really hard to eradicate
systemic racism the first step is to
acknowledge the suffering being honest
and understanding what is going on in
our society we need to educate ourselves
and we need to educate those around us
especially those who hold explicit
racist views but also those who are
complacent complacency is just as bad
you don’t want to stand up and be an
ally only when it’s convenient or only
after a tragedy such as the murder of
George Floyd we need these issues to
always be at the forefront of what we’re
doing we must listen we must learn and
we must act the source of disparities in
our system as we talked about in the
beginning it’s deeper and more systemic
than explicit racial discrimination and
is present in all facets of our society
and we simply cannot continue on like
this thanks for leaving this in-depth
conversation we know this episode was a
little bit different we hope you enjoyed
it it’s very relevant and timely right
now and for people who have asked how to
learn more about these issues will
provide our sources
recommended readings and documentaries
in our show notes and
at the end of the episode we thank you
so much for joining us today and we hope
that you enjoyed this special episode of
women and crime
sources for today’s episode includes:
the Bureau of Justice
Statistics the Federal Bureau of
Investigations Uniform Crime Report the
Sentencing Project the New York Times
the National Registry of exonerations
and the Innocence Project
some notable documentaries include
13th and when they
see us
recommended readings includes
white fragility by Robyn D’Angelo why
are all the black kids sitting together
in the cafeteria and other conversations
about race by Beverly Daniel Tatum white
rage by Carol Anderson the new Jim Crow
mass incarceration in the age of
colorblindness by Michelle Alexander and
just mercy by Bryan Stevenson
CREDITS:
Women and Crime is written and hosted by Megan Sacks PhD and Amy Schlossberg PhD
our producer and editor is James Varga
our music is composed by desert media