Episode Transcript
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This is episode 4, the story
of Pauline Parker and Juliet Hulme
[Music]
hi and welcome back to women in crime so
this week we’ll be discussing a gripping
case out of New Zealand from the s
there are a few cases that had elicited
such an international buzz and after
hearing this case you’ll definitely
understand why I’m so before we get
started I just want to tell you why I
chose this case so you know our friend
Toby ball from crime writers on so Toby
does well let me tell the listeners Toby
ball is an author of true crime novels
and as I said he’s one of the hosts on
crime writers on and I was a guest on
his book club podcast called balls deep
dive balls deep dive his name’s Toby
ball get it I get it
okay so anyway he is he is a wonderful
person I met him actually in Chicago at
the true crime podcast festival so I was
I was on his book club podcast and the
book we read was an Perry in the murder
of the century written by Peter Graham
and it was a book that covered the case
of Pauline Parker and Juliet Hulme so I
first discussed it there and I became so
into this case so I want to thank Toby
for introducing me to that book because
I never probably would have read it to
be honest with you I don’t know if
you’ve ever seen the movie heavenly
creatures you know I did see that you
did oh no no I saw it okay really long
time ago okay it’s actually about
years old yeah in Peter Jackson so
I do know a little bit about the story
but I don’t know the deep dive at all
and as we’ll talk about a little later
it’s the book obviously is based on true
events but there’s a lot that the movie
got wrong is always the case
exactly in best friends Juliet and
Pauline were just and years old
respectively and they were a very
unlikely pair Juliet came from a very
well-off family her family had recently
moved to New Zealand from London
the reason they actually moved to New
Zealand was her father dr. Henry Hume
was a prominent nuclear physicist and he
got the job as rector of Canterbury
University in New Zealand so they moved
to New Zealand from London for this very
high-profile job and they were very
well-off they lived on a sprawl
state the house even had a name you know
like those really the manners yeah
exactly is a very fancy house her mother
Hilda Hume was described as a very
social lady some say to social I’ll let
you figure out what that means she was a
very attractive woman she was part of
the marriage Council in New Zealand so
she did a little work with couples
therapy
okay so I’ve never heard I was gonna say
what’s a marriage Council yeah I don’t
know okay okay so Juliet was described
as tall attractive smart and confident
although you wouldn’t know by looking at
her because she presented herself with
an air of confidence she had a very
tumultuous childhood many issues then
from childhood illness so when they
lived in London it was during World War
Two and there was some reports that said
she was shell-shocked as a child they
often had to take cover her and her
family but what really was problematic
for her in childhood she had an serious
bout of tuberculosis and as a child
since she was diagnosed with
tuberculosis she was actually sent away
for many months at a time to warmer
weather so she was sent to live in the
Caribbean and then she was sent to live
in South Africa she spent a lot of time
away from her family even when she
wasn’t ill her family would often send
her away to boarding schools so she
spent a lot of her childhood away from
her family and there was even I read in
the book that we I mentioned before
Peter Graham’s book it talked about how
the mother when Juliet was just five
years old in the middle of the night the
mother left Juliet by herself because
she went to the doctor with a younger
brother like it just seemed like there
was a lot of attachment stuff going on
what did she live with like other family
members or nannies they were exactly she
be sent lived with her aunt in South
Africa she went with a caretaker I guess
we could say a nanny to the Caribbean
so Pauline was a bit different Pauline
Parker came from a more modest
background so they lived in Christchurch
New Zealand family was working-class
father George was a fish shop manager
also known as a fishmonger did you know
that and mother Honora often referred to
as Norah he was I guess you could say
she was a homemaker but they had tenants
living in their home because they
couldn’t afford their house so they had
they boarded people there
the mother was there were some accounts
that she was abusive depressed a lot of
issues going on between Pauline and her
mother were there other siblings in
their home there were so their first
child was a stillborn the family’s first
child
the second child’s born with Down
syndrome so they had a little bit of a
tough family dynamic but they worked
really hard they were an honest you know
working family Pauline also had
childhood illness that would greatly
influence her as well similar to her
soon to be best friend Juliet she was
diagnosed with osteomyelitis which is a
painful condition that left her with a
permanent limp it’s an issue in the
bones that’s very painful okay she was
described as homely a bit of a misfit
she was short with uncharacteristically
short hair for girls at that time and
she was often angry described in several
reports as always having an angry scowl
on her face her relationship with her
parents was reportedly strained and this
relationship would just continue to get
worse upon meeting Juliet so the girls
first met when they were both excused
from PA class due to their lingering
medical condition so as I mentioned
Juliet had issues with breathing and
Pauline had issues with her foot and so
they both would sit out for hours
together and they very quickly bonded it
was said that Pauline worshipped
Juliette remember Juliet was the one who
had a lot of money she was considered
very attractive and she had a lot of
confidence and I guess we could say
Pauline was almost the opposite on every
account the girl spent most of their
time at the hume household because that
was the sprawling estate they had horses
and it was very it was a really fun
place for Pauling to be courts a place
you want to be when you’re you have come
from a poorer home exactly no the friend
who has everything yeah she really
revered her there was a lot it seemed
like she really looked up to her and
really wanted to be here she had a huge
fondness for Hilda Juliette’s mom she
didn’t like her own mother so it was
here at this estate they called Alam it
was here that they created a fantasy
world these two girls so it was called
the fourth world they each took on new
personas alter egos they created a
secret language and a whole system of
encryption between the two of them
these girls were in
separable they had sleepovers they took
baths together they did not spend time
with anyone but each other for several
years
sounds already like this could be a
problem right well I was thinking taking
baths together is a little odd at and
but yeah so you know that comes into
play okay later on so the problem first
began when Juliet and Pauline were
threatened with separation so as I said
these girls were inseparable the parents
were not thrilled with this there was
suspected lesbianism at the time in New
Zealand lesbianism was equated with
mental illness and it was very much
round upon remember we’re talking about
the mid s so it’s quite different than
it is today right okay so the problems
started when Juliet and Pauline were
threatened with separation Henri Hume
had resigned from his position at
Canterbury College he was forced to
resign because they no longer wanted him
there he was a brilliant man however he
wasn’t very social and in that position
they needed someone more social than him
at the same time they were filing for
divorce Hilda was having an affair with
actually a gentleman who was boarding at
their estate and Juliet had caught her
mother and this man in bed but that’s
neither here nor there but I’m sure it
was traumatizing yes so since Henry was
gonna be leaving England and they were
getting a divorce
it was decided that Juliet remember she
had she had been ill when she was
younger with TB tuberculosis she had
another bout of it around this time and
she it was hospitalized for several
months over it so they decided that she
would be sent to live with Henry’s
sister in South Africa because the
climate would be beneficial to her
health and she was okay with this
because she said that’s fine as long as
Pauline comes with me she did not she
was angry at her mom about the affair
Pauline was not happy at home they kind
of saw this as their ticket out their
final plan was to actually end up in the
United States so they just saw this as
one stop on their journey together okay
so the Humes believed that this was
gonna happen they were okay with Pauline
coming or they were at least humoring
the girls
Henry Hugh even said he would pay for
Pauline to joined however it was only if
Pauline’s mom would permit it and
Pauline knew that her mother would never
allow this
yeah I think I see where we’re going
yeah okay so the girls believe that
Pauline’s hated mother was the only
obstacle to their future happiness
everything was all figured out for them
but they figured they had to think about
how are we gonna get this obstacle out
of the way and the humans just out of
curiosity the father wasn’t just saying
this that they were seriously going to
their mixed reports by some report it’s
we’re just humoring the girls because we
knew there was they were so obsessed
with each other and inseparable so it
was like yeah yeah she’ll be able to
come I’ll even pay okay you know so it’s
hard to know but they thought the girls
at the very least the girls were sure
that this was gonna happen so what did
they do the girls formed a plan to
murder Pauline’s mother in order to
remove obviously this one obstacle that
would get in their way so their
long-term plan was to go to South Africa
as planned you know to live with Henry’s
sister and then head to the United
States where they believed they would
publish their writings and work in film
were they some sort of literature gurus
so you know how I mentioned they had
something called the Fourth World they
were into this imaginary universe they
spent all of their time writing about
this Pauline was very much into
journaling and this will come up later
in trial she journal just about
everything these two girls did talking
about their fantasy life’s together
talking about their plans for the future
in all sorts of the way and let me guess
those journals are gonna come back to
haunt her a trial they will and I’ll be
reading a few of the excerpt from this
ooh and Juliet had journals too so it
wasn’t just Pauline so let’s jump to
what actually happened so they executed
their plan when I say plan I’m gonna
wait till trial to explain to you how we
know it was a plan but it was very much
premeditated understood June nd
they invited Honora again Honora is
Pauline’s mom to join them on a walk
through Victoria Park after a few
minutes of walking down a wooden path
Juliet walked ahead again this is all
according to a very scripted plan okay
Juliet walked ahead it dropped a stone
and then called over Honora to have a
look when her Nora bent down to pick up
the stone or to take a look at what was
going on
Pauline took a brick that was wrapped in
a stocking and did one quick blow to
Pauline’s head Wow did the one blow do
it well this is where things didn’t go
as planned
because we know that the girls hoped
that it was just one quick blow and they
were planning on making it look like she
had had a fall and she had hit her head
and they were gonna put her down an
embankment however one quick blow did
not do it so Pauline hit her a few more
times
unfortunately Honora had several
defensive wounds that will you know show
that she fought that quite hard at some
point Juliet took over and started
beating her and then at another point it
went back to Pauline with Juliet holding
the mother down oh it ended up that she
had over wounds some of those they
weren’t all bludgeoned there were about
that were from the brick with and
there was other from just other fighting
so Honora fought back it took several
hits and they had to hold her down and
finally she succumbed to her injuries
the girls were blood-soaked and
hysterical they ran for help exclaiming
that there had been a terrible accident
whoever it did not take really long for
the truth to emerge they ran to a tea
shop to get help because that was
closest to where they were and they were
just splattered in blood it didn’t fit
with their story that this woman had hit
her head and fallen and then one I guess
it was the two people that worked at the
tea shop when they came to the aid of
Honora it was very clear by looking at
her that something more sinister had
happened right she looked like she had
just undergone an attack and these two
girls are covered in blood so you know
probably as you’re saying it I’m
thinking this looks already very suspect
and not only were they covered in blood
they were giggling and their effect
didn’t really match what had happened so
they had called Henry Hume to pick up
the girls because obviously at this
point they don’t know exactly what
happened they just know pony’s mother
has suffered an accident and within a
day or so it becomes very clear it
starts by Pauline confessing and the
girls did she to the police yeah the
police knew something was going on
pretty quickly and then Pauline
confessed and then when Juliet heard
that Polling confessed she confessed as
well because it was a sink or swim it
was the kind of relationship where
we’re going down together we’re gonna do
this so both girls confess to the crime
how long had these girls so you said in
the beginning there were and do
you know how long they had been sort of
friends or like how long from the time
they met until the time they executed
this plan was it a year or two it was a
couple of years okay yeah cuz they had
met in high school okay so it had to
have been a couple it was one of those
relationships that moved really fast
very quickly okay also at one point I
told you how Juliet was hospitalized for
TB and Pauline was the only one there
for her Juliet’s parents had abandoned
her again there was so Pauline it’s
interesting Pauline looked up to Juliet
at the beginning and then it almost
became that Pauline was the caretaker
but you know they almost switched roles
because she didn’t have that support at
home and Pauline became you know all she
had so I want to skip ahead to trial
because it was an actual media frenzy oh
I can imagine
yeah so besides the fact that you know
it’s a upper-class area unlikely
suspects Henry Hume had a very
high-profile position and there was a
lot of interesting arguments that would
be brought up at trial and that’s where
I want to spend more time so the main
question here was were the girls insane
so the defense was trying to argue that
they should be not guilty by reason of
insanity and they argued that the girl
suffered from a rare disorder called
foal a I do have you ever heard of
falaya do I actually have not never okay
so and I think I’m even saying it right
so it’s a French word maybe I was gonna
say maybe here maybe I don’t know what
so it’s a shared delusional disorder or
a mutually reinforcing paranoia between
two people okay wait I’ve heard of sorry
so I have heard of shared delusional
disorder and I swear this came up in the
Slenderman case you’re absolutely right
okay so I think that’s a perfect example
of this okay with the two girls
yes sharing this delusion I just hadn’t
heard the I guess the front yeah so
actually LA not so confidential our
friends at that podcast they just did a
whole episode recently on fellated ooh
and they talked about that case along
with this case so they even helped me
understand it even
more although I understood it because
you know since I did study friends at
psychology this came up a lot but I just
want to talk a little bit more about
what it is and whether or not there was
evidence of this shared delusional
disorder so what could really manifest
in two ways so either you have a
dominant person in a relationship who
forms a delusion and imposes their
delusion on the other person this would
be a situation where since Juliette was
like the more powerful one at some point
that she would have a delusion and
Pauline since she worshipped Juliette
she would take on she would almost
believe anything that she said and that
was also by the way the exact case
exactly exactly so I understand that one
but okay yeah the other one which is
very rare is when two people suffer
psychosis independent of each other like
birds of a feather flock together I
guess that’s you sites two people
suffering from psychosis kind of find
each other exactly okay it’s like you
think there’s aliens out to kill you and
I think there’s aliens out to kill me
we’re best friends then okay so I think
that’s how that goes I’m gonna assume
there’s no I’m not gonna assume which
which are they trying to qualify under
they actually from what from what I
could find they were not I mean there
was a lot of expert testimony it seems
from what I read it looks like it was
the first one okay but it could be
argued who was the more dominant one
that’s really a subjective call because
as I mentioned at some point their roles
seem to have reversed a little bit okay
after Juliette got that second bout of
tuberculosis it almost seemed that
Pauline was the one who was in the
higher position okay but either way I
don’t actually believe any of this was
at play I just think they were
preoccupied with ideas of great power
I think they rejected morality I think
it’s possible that they had a
personality disorder mm-hmm antisocial
narcissistic and it’s very clear that
they were aware of what they were doing
and it was very much premeditated as I’d
like to talk about now
do you think well we’ll get to this but
do you think also we should discuss the
fact of their ages and how I don’t know
if you’re gonna get to that at all but
yeah yeah they might have been
premeditated they might have been
planned they might not have been
psychotic but we also know that I’m you
know you know ish are they making the
same kind of rational decision
that a year old makes that
conversation is definitely one we’re
gonna have when we talk about their
sentence okay it becomes very relevant
okay so I want to read a few entries
from the Diaries because they were
instrumental at trial as I said Pauline
kept a diary and the police were able to
very quickly get this diary however
after this happened that night Hilde
Hume asked her what did they call it
then grounds keeper to burn all of
Juliet’s journals so I think she had a
feeling that these journals would be
incriminating and they got burned pretty
quickly so we don’t know much of what
was in Juliet’s journals but we have all
of Pauline her mom might not have been
there for in the past but she sure
jumped yeah no she did so some of the
extracts of the diary were read in court
so from the trial transcript we have a
little bit so I just want to remind you
the murder happens in June so February
so four months prior
Pauline writes why could mother not die
dozens of people thousands of people are
dying every day so why not mother and
father – okay so she started talking
about wait so she says her father – so
even if they kill her mother did they
were not worried then they thought if
the mother was gone and they father
would act yes oh yeah exactly they
thought she would be the problem okay
yep then in April of course there’s
thousands of diary entries but we’re
just picking out one set talk most of
the case and then in April she says
anger against my mother has boiled up
inside of me it is she who is one of the
main obstacles in my path
suddenly a means of ridding myself of
the obstacle occurred to me so in April
the wheels start turning okay right so
at the end of April a few days later she
says I did not tell de Bora the Bora was
her pet name for Juliet ah so remember I
said they each had like five different
names at different times you know what I
remember this from the movie you do okay
so I did not tell the Bora of my plans
for removing mother the last fate I wish
to meet is one in a borstal not sure
what that means it’s one of their
made-up things okay I’m trying to think
of some way I wanted to appear either a
natural or accidental death okay so she
starts thinking about this and she tells
her girlfriend Julie
or Tabora about this and it seems like
she’s on board but this is bad because
this shows that she was also the
originator of the plant it does it does
and we’ll talk about whether or not her
punishment was any different so the
crime occurred on June rd so we have
diary entries leading up to the crime
that are quite telling
so four days before the crime she says
we practically finished our books
referring to the novels that the girls
were writing together I remember
children of both variants her writing
and our main Ike for the day was to
mitre mother Moyer they didn’t say
murder they said Moy der okay that’s not
just me having a weird speech to for
maybe I’m actually glad you clarified
okay she goes on to say the notion is
not a new one but this time it is a
definite plan that we intend to carry
out we have worked it out carefully and
are both thrilled with the idea
naturally we feel a trifle nervous but
the pleasure of anticipation is great so
they’re excited they are very excited
and there were reports the days leading
up to the murder
the Humes report never seen Juliet
happier there were also some reports
that Pauline was in high spirits as well
the next day we discussed our plans for
a Moy during mother and made them a
little clearer even though I have no
qualms of conscience or is it peculiar
that we are so mad so earlier in her
journal she talked about how the girls
decided together that they were both mad
another word for insane right not mad
isn’t angry two days before the murder
we have decided to use a brick in a
stocking rather than a sandbag we
discuss the Moy der fully I feel keyed
up as if I was planning a surprise party
so next time I write in the diary mother
will be dead how odd yet how pleasing
like we’re talking like cold-blooded
murder here it sounds you know I also at
first I’m like it’s very utilitarian
their crime right they see her as the
obstacles no they’re doing it just to
get rid of her but and how it seems like
they’re getting an exhilaration almost
like the don’t get me real feeling yeah
yeah like a thrill kill which is very
different so those two that’s that
they’re entirely different as my point
that’s why this case is so interesting
because there are so
many theories that can help us
understand right and after I research
this case I’m definitely using this as a
case study in my theory class because we
have biological sociological
psychological it’s everything oh right
it really teach our intro class oh yeah
theories this is this is a good case
study it really is so the day before the
murder I am writing a little of this up
in the morning before the death I feel
very excited and the night before
Christmas II I did not have pleasant
dreams though okay so what else was
brought up at trial obviously the diary
entries were very big both sides you the
diary entries to bolster their points
which is interesting
the girls sexuality became a huge focus
of this case not only was it a focus at
trial because again homosexuality was
equated with insanity the media had a
field day with this is this do you think
I’m sure it was a big issue and I
understand do you think this was also
was it like an attempt to like dirty up
the you know dirty them up kind of it’s
not just about the murder but it’s about
their kind of you know you’ve heard it
like those filthy perverted absolutely
okay for example one media outlet the
headline was dirty-minded girls
the other one was homosexuality and
murder exactly what you’re talking about
so it’s all about the salaciousness of
their sexuality yep exactly
okay although to this day nobody knows
if they ever were engaged in a sexual
relationship but we’ll explore that a
little more when I talk about what
happened okay
it was widely reported that the girls
were unaffected and even disrespectful
at trial did not show remorse they were
put together prior to trial they were
housed together in jail which is very
something you don’t see at least not in
our country I don’t know how things are
in New Zealand current day but they were
kept together prior to trial and they
were tried together we know oftentimes
that happen I was going to ask if there
or did they turn on each other
nope interesting mm-hmm they did not
okay
so the girls not surprisingly the girls
were convicted of murder August th
they were found sane and guilty so
guilty of what was it like they’re
guilty of premeditated murder they were
guilty of murder yeah okay they were
guilty and at in New Zealand at the time
there was a minimum
of ten years it was considered a life
sentence but in New Zealand at the time
a life sentence carried a minimum of ten
years
however the girls of course they were
very young so they were too young to be
considered for the death penalty okay so
that’s what I was gonna ask so because
of their age the way New Zealand did it
is that they were to be detained at Her
Majesty’s pleasure so in practice this
sentence meant that they were to be
detained at the discretion of the
Minister of Justice what isn’t that
interesting it was just an indeterminant
sentencing that’s it
so Her Majesty is kind of like the
mineral or does this is that like a
pearl I mean it’s almost essentially
like a one person one world war exactly
isn’t that interesting so one person
parole board and you want to guess how
long they serve before being released at
Her Majesty’s pleasure but so okay but
was it a minimum of ten years you said
it would have it would have been but
okay so that’s my question is it a
minimum of ten years or at Her Majesty’s
pleasure so it’s a minimum of ten years
if they weren’t children the fact that
they were children it became at Her
Majesty’s pleasure sorry it’s a little
confusing because it’s quite different
from our system no that’s different it
is from so we should never
determine and everyone was more
indeterminate into rehabilitation and
more focused on children being children
I’m gonna guess that they served five
years yes so they were housed separately
totally different facility I was gonna
be my next question they were not
allowed to communicate although there
are some reports that they were writing
letters via other inmates at the
facilities I have a more interesting
question I’m gonna say five years
they’re both released my questions gonna
be and I don’t know if I’m jumping the
gun so you can tell me did they wind up
finding each other after did these two
wind up together or did they go their
own way so everyone including myself a
shock that they’ve never had and they’re
both still alive to this day and we’ll
talk about where they are now they never
had any contact with each other again
the only speculation is that they wrote
letters during their time incarcerated
but as part of their so Pauline was
released and she had to be on probation
for she had a term of probation where
Juliet was just
released without any you know any
probation part of their terms of release
was that they could not contact each
other and by all accounts they never
contacted each other Wow okay based on
what we know about their relationship I
was really surprised by that I’m
surprised by that too but you often see
when especially when kids teenagers
commit these crimes and they’re so crazy
and loving they need to be together
once they’ve spent a couple years in in
prison it’s all the sudden what you know
I’m not sure what I was thinking and now
I’m I’ve grown out of it yeah it seems
like that might have been what happened
okay so after being released from prison
again they’re quite young they’re around
I want two years they have a whole life
ahead of them here right so there’s a
lot to talk about because they were
released in mid s and here we are in
so what has been going on with
these two women since so after being
released from prison humor turned to
England Juliet she became a flight
attendant I do want to point out that
they both changed their names upon
release that makes sense that case was
notorious yep but from what I read the
government gave them new identities
isn’t that interesting
it’s weird mm-hmm so they’re in witness
protection it sounds like a right no no
so let’s talk about Juliet first okay
Juliet Hulme returned to England became
a flight attendant for a period she
lived in the United States as a nanny
flying under the radar
nobody knows who any who these women are
at this point she changed her name she
reinvented herself as an pari which
we’ll talk a little bit more about the
significance of that name in a minute
but she was a nanny for quite a few
years she became very involved in the
Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day
saints some say it’s because they have
such a strong focus on forgiveness but
possibly it’s unknown pauline again now
Hillary also became quite religious she
later settled in a Scottish village the
most interesting thing is she became and
Perrie okay do you know who Anne Perry
is does that name sound familiar to you
nope okay so remember we talked about
the movie heavenly creatures came out in
us until this movie nobody knew
where Juliette and Pauline won
there was no media attention when they
were released it was kept quiet and they
gave new names nobody knew where these
women or for years and it’s like
everyone forgot about them movie
heavenly creatures comes out it’s a hit
international hit journalists are poking
around who are these women
so they find Juliet Hulme Juliet Hulme
is now living as an Perry and Perry is
an internationally known New York Times
bestselling author of crime fiction and
Perry do you know the author and Perry I
just can’t think that but you’re telling
me she assumes she’s written over
novels wait I’m not you bet she assumed
it she’s actually and Perry yeah that’s
what I mean you’re saying she assumed
this name of this movie you know I’m
sorry she’s a famous novelist stop it
yeah so and Perry anyone who reads crime
novels it’s also known as like detective
fiction historical murder mystery she
has over novels countless number of
short stories they’ve received critical
acclaim huge success over million
books are in print worldwide that’s the
best part of the story I know that’s why
I waited oh my gosh Wow
so in what happens is you know
someone does the digging and they find
out they trace who Hilda huma’s and they
find through records that she has a
daughter who now is an Perry
because an Perry is still in touch with
her human so a journalist calls up and
Perry’s agent she has a literary agent
cuz she’s like a huge time
internationally best-selling author
they’re like hey do you know and Perry
is actually Juliet Hulme and she’s like
what so she calls an and says hey this
reporter called me and said and and
owned up to it she said who she was and
she did talk to the media and did a few
interviews she shows no remorse no she’s
somewhat throws Pauline under the bus in
the sense that I felt like I had to it
seems like she felt like she had to do
it because it was either Pauline was
gonna kill herself or her mother was
gonna go she doesn’t talk very much
about it but she she gives the
impression someone asked if she was
remorseful and she said well I didn’t
really
Honora very well certainly that’s not
that’s not remorseful for partaking in a
craft not it almost seems like she’s
totally disassociated herself right that
hole I mean she’s looking a whole nother
life like I said she’s very well-off so
she lives in a small so she spent a lot
of time in California and then she
settled in a small Scottish village and
she still publishes like crazy and okay
remember her brother that we mentioned
from when she was younger her brother
now works for her think like doing
transcription she’s still doing her
thing okay she also there’s a
documentary on Prime but it was about
like writing not anything about this
case so Pauline again now lives as
Hillary Nathan she lives a very
different life oh and Perry is in the
public eye like I said she’s doing she’s
writing a lot and getting you know
noticed all the time as a critically
acclaimed author Hillary lives a quiet
life she was a librarian she now runs I
believe some sort of horse farm she
never spoke to the public the only time
anyone had any information on her is one
her sister spoke to the media and told
the media that her that her sister who
was once Pauline has little contact with
the outside world she’s a devout Roman
Catholic and spends much of her days in
prayer ironically her and Pauline both
live in Scotland there were only about
ten or eleven hours apart but zero
contact since do you know if either one
of them ever went on to marry or have
children oh no they both remain single
and Perry in an interview said that the
girls relationship was not homosexual in
any way and apparently was dating here
and there she does live with a woman
apparently it’s the best friend who’s
also I think her agent but you know
there’s speculation all the time of
course
so yeah they both they both remain
childless not married throughout their
whole lifetimes they’re both in their
s now just gonna say they must be old
Wow they’re in their s so so that’s
the case as I mentioned the book by
Peter Graham is so comprehensive and
gives more detail than I can ever cover
here so definitely check out the book if
you’re interested clearly feel like I
will so I just want to talk about
matricide for a minute okay because it
is so rare it is like
some % of all murders are sorry
matricide is killing ones mother right
correct so when you look at the
statistics surrounding matricide not
only is it rare % of all math resides
people act alone and two-thirds are
carried out by an adult son it’s
typically after there’s repeated abuse
so if this case is so interesting
because it’s the crime is so rare and
then plus you have both girls and we
have all these theories that can help us
understand right was there a pathology
neither girl was ever diagnosed with
anything that that doesn’t mean there
was no disorder but there’s biological
psychological sociological explanations
that can help us understand this case
but it’s still so difficult to wrap your
head around especially being that these
girls never spoke again after that right
it does sound to me I have to say it
sounds like they had elements of shared
psychosis I couldn’t be sure because of
their age because I think they probably
did I wouldn’t have given these girls
life in prison I mean I think that would
have been too harsh at the time
considering their age and the
possibility of this mental illness and
the stigma around homosexuality but
certainly it was brutal and violence I’m
pretty sure five years wasn’t enough for
this either I’m gonna have to agree with
that I too feel like we cannot sentence
children the way I do think they could
have done more to maybe rehabilitate the
girls that sounds like neither one of
them was remorseful they never took
ownership for what they did they put
them in you know a jail as far as I
understand it was an adult facility I
think they could have used a little more
coaching five years is really just I
mean this woman was brutally attacked
oh no and it was premeditated and I
certainly agree with you I think it
sounds like a vicious man again this is
New Zealand what would have happened in
America they probably would have tried
them as adults interesting Pauline is
lower class Juliet was very well her
father was very well established so it’s
interesting to look at the class
differences and well in America then
they probably would’ve had different
outcomes because that’s what I’m saying
but they also would have been given the
time they still wouldn’t have received
the sentences they would now because as
you and I teach in our classes you know
in the s and s there was that
focus on rehabilitation indeterminate
sentencing
whereas now it’s much harsher and
children are tried as adults and they
receive very adult sentences but you
know New Jersey recently passed
juveniles cannot receive life without
parole anymore so at least we’re heading
in the right direction
I know that we’re in a progressive state
certainly a really interesting case Amy
Thank You Megan
and thank you so much for listening to
my case this week thank you everyone and
that’s it for us we’ll see you next time
bye
Women & Crime is written and hosted
by Meghan Sacks Amy Schlosberg our
producer and editor is James Varga our
music is composed by desert media
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