Episode Transcript
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This is episode 6, The Noura Jackson story
[Music]
Hi Meghan
Hi Amy how are you I’m excited I got a
good one for you today don’t we say that
every time I know it’s true though or do
you know the newer Jackson story so I
have heard of it and I know a little bit
but as usual I don’t know the deep dive
the details I don’t even think I know
the outcomes oh that’s a beautiful thing
because I’m about to school you all
right let’s do it
all right well Noir Jackson born in
to Jennifer Jackson who we will come to
find out is the victim in this case and
Nas me Hasini her mother was a
successful bond trader and her father a
former Lebanese army captain owned
several small businesses in the Memphis
area
unfortunately the marriage did not last
long actually they ended up getting
married just months before Noura was
born and they separated just six months
after so they got divorced Noura was a
baby and the father did say in the life
until Noura was about years old
however at age jennifer filed for full
custody Naz me found himself in a bit of
legal battle he got charged with child
molestation a lot of was it endangerment
of a young person giving alcohol to a
minor and then a sexual assault case
didn’t involve Noura did it it did not
but as any mother would the mom said not
around my child and there was also a
history of abuse with NAS me and
Jennifer so he would not reenter Noura’s
life until she was but it’s a very
interesting way that they became
reacquainted so Noura just walked into a
convenience store one day and she saw a
man who looked really familiar to her
working in the store so you asked the
clerk you know who’s that guy over there
what’s his name sure enough it was nas
me and then she saw a baby photo of
herself posted on the cash register you
know how sometimes they have pictures on
a register that’s crazy isn’t that crazy
so after at this time her father was
back in her life and you know it was
kind of nice because they were both very
happy that they were able to you know
rekindle in some way unfortunately very
soon after they started communicating
again he would be murdered Wow yeah
and this was just months prior to
Jennifer’s murder how was he murdered
well the case is still unsolved there
were a few developments in which
we’ll talk about but let’s talk about
the crime first January he was
working in that convenience store that I
referenced before and we know this
because there is surveillance video
available a man walks in asks to talk to
Naz me in the back Naz me willingly goes
with him into the back to talk to him he
gets shot in the head so at first you
think well this must be a robbery so you
do see the man before he leaves he does
take some stuff out of the cash register
but what we should focus on more is what
he does before that because he actually
ran Sachs and Naz Me’s office and takes
a VHS tape so he’s clearly looking for
something and then he finds this VHS
tape which the police think the man
believes to be your surveillance camera
and this was just a backup but there’s
some speculation that it might be some
other kind of tape so is this possibly
like the father or a relative of a
victim of his like avenging well you
would think that’s possible but he was
doing a lot of other shady business so
he owned a limousine company in addition
to his convenience store and he ran a
limit this limo company which reportedly
assured people from a nearby strip club
and there was also a nearby police
station and there was some speculation
that there are some people that were
high up in the community that may have
been using his limos to have sex and Nas
me he was secretly taping these
interactions in addition there were some
reports that there was a police officer
a local officer who was using Naz Me’s
office in the convenience store to have
sexual relations with a dancer and that
Naz me was potentially videotaping me so
take your pick
take your pick but in there was
actually a report that suggested that he
might have had some issues with the
Mexican drug cartel because he might
have been he might have unknowingly
videotaped some drug dealings in the
limos that could be traced back either
way we’ll revisit this a little bit
later when we talk about alternate
theories but let’s go back now to Noura’s
childhood okay so again remember I
said you know Jennifer and Naz me
divorced when Jennifer was very young
her mother had several failed
relationships throughout Noura’s early
years she got engaged then she broke off
that engagement and got married again
this man was reportedly abusive and then
she got divorced again a few years later
they moved around a bit for these
different men they moved to Arkansas
then they moved to Georgia before they
ended up settling in Memphis so Noura did
have a little bit of a tumultuous
upbringing by all accounts though Noura
and her mother did have a very close
relationship and at times some would say
their relationship actually functioned a
little more like a friendship than a
mother-daughter relationship sometimes
you’ll see parents feel guilty if
they’re a single mother and they try to
become friends with their child so there
there were some reports that in her
teenage years and Noura’s teenage years
they really started to butt heads a bit
as obviously most mother and daughters
do in their teenage years but it really
became difficult for Jennifer to get a
grasp on Noura
because Noura was used to this this is my
mom were we’re friends you know we hang
out and now all the sudden her mom was
trying to impose rules imposed rules and
this was really due to the fact that
Noura was not excelling in school she
became more interested and just hanging
out with friends going out she had
several boyfriends he was a bit of a
party girl
which would become a bit of a focus at
trial that’s one of the things I
remember about the case was them calling
her the party girl once again the media
media had a blast with this you know
character assassination at its finest
which we see a lot in these cases right
especially with women yep
so when Noura was years old she
experienced a rough patch in her life
her maternal grandmother who she was
extremely close with had died and then
as discussed her father was murdered and
then just ten months later her childhood
best friend was in a fatal car accident
so she had a lot going on other than you
know the fact that she was a teenager
dealing with normal teenage stuff
apparently there were issues with her
friends didn’t want to be friends with
her she switched groups of friends all
typical teenage stuff but then she had
all these people close to her died
she sounds incredibly unlucky yeah so
her acting out is somewhat
understandable she was respond
to all of you know these things going on
around her so she refused to go back to
school after she completed the th
grade and actually never progressed on
to senior year her mother insisted that
she be homeschooled because education
was very important to Jennifer so that
may just a month or so before Jennifer
was murdered it was reported that
Jennifer was really tightening the reins
on Noura trying you know getting on her
case a lot more really wanting her to
excel in school and Noura was becoming a
bit more wild I think I’m already seeing
motive yeah exactly well at least
potential motive okay all right so let’s
move on to you know the night slash
morning in question so the evening of
Saturday June th
Noura went to an Italian festival with
friends and then to a house party and a
lot of people were with Noura say this is
true this is where we were she was here
at the same time Jennifer was attending
a wedding and then went to a local bar
with somebody knew that she was dating
some would say it was you know a good
friend a boyfriend it was a new interest
in her life
Noura spoke to her mother shortly after
midnight and cellphone records
corroborate this so Jennifer returned
home and this is cooperated by receipts
and cell phone records
Jennifer returned home at about :
that evening and it seems as though she
noticed Noura’s not home yet nor should
be home she had schoolwork she’s
grounded she wasn’t supposed to be out
so Noura’s mother calls her and
reportedly tells her you know get your
ass home pretty much and Noura was angry
and yelling back at her and reportedly
told people at the party my mother’s a
bitch and she needs to go to hell oh so
that of course is going to come up these
are normal things so of course when you
get mad like teenagers they say this
about their mom but you know
yeah context is everything so this is at
you know a little after midnight what
happens between then and : a.m. is
unclear so according to Noura I’ll tell
you what what’s going on and then
that’ll lead up to her discovering her
mother’s body but according to Noura
after the house party she headed to
another friend’s house who actually
wasn’t on-again off-again boyfriend she
was hooking up with a few different
guys that’ll come into play apparently
she stopped her guests then she went to
Taco Bell she bought cigarettes at some
point she drove around for a while she
claims she drove around smoking pot and
she came home shortly before : a.m.
to find her mother stabbed to death any
of this stuff
I’m I don’t know if I’m jumping the gun
okay corroborated or not the Taco Bell
the cigarettes like surveillance
receipts anything so what’s really
curious is that there was no activity on
her otherwise active cell phone between
the hours of : and :
okay so there’s receipts around want a
little before o’clock
a.m. she bought cigarettes there’s a
receipt for that some people some of her
friends spoke to her she had gone to
Taco Bell realized she left a wallet but
then if she left her wallet how she buy
cigarettes there was a lot of kind of
shady shady things that did not add up
okay the shadiest thing is the police
asked her you know where she was and she
gave her that laundry list I just told
you except she left out one little
detail she left out the fact that she
stopped at a Walgreens why is this yeah
why is this important why why do we care
that she’s at Walgreens a little bit
before : a.m. well the reason why we
care is she has seen on surveillance
camera entering the store with a towel
wrapped around her hand goes up to the
clerk with an actively bleeding wound on
her hand
the clerk gifts are a big wad of paper
towel to stop the bleeding and on this
trip to Walgreens she purchases
band-aids and skincare products such as
hydrogen peroxide new skin which is like
that band-aid stuff yes so why not
mention this to the police
okay I have so many questions already
yeah can I ask what are you go okay
first of all was her mother stabbed to
death over times right you said that
okay sorry so I’m already thinking you
know when you stabbed someone this the
slippage onto the knife with the hand
okay well let me ask you if the knife
slips when you’re stabbing someone where
do you expect the cut to be in the palm
of your hands interesting I would think
so too
the cut was on the back of her hand
between her thumb and forefinger not in
the
webbing a random gash on the back of her
hand in a frenzy she could have also
like knifed herself her mother you know
threw the knife and I’m just putting
these of course so what what does she
say
what’s her explanation for why she’s
bleeding I will okay so before that her
explanation for why not mention this to
the police she said she didn’t think it
was important yet going to Taco Bell was
I mean Taco Bell is very important Taco
Bell is important well the way we value
food is but and the only reason why the
only reason why this even came to light
is because the police searched Noura’s
car and found the bag of items from
Walgreens and then they went to
Walgreens and they looked up the items
and they found that when it was
purchased they pulled their surveillance
and they were like whoa she didn’t tell
us about this so Noura when confronted
about the cut
Noura claimed that she cut her hand on a
beer bottle the previous Friday night
what so the night in question is
Saturday night when she was at the
Italian festival she claims that she had
cut her hand the Friday night did anyone
notice these cuts and why is she
bleeding all over the place hours
later well the problem with this is
according to witness testimony she told
four to five different versions of why
her hand was cut she told some people
she cut it at the Italian festival
she told another person she burned it
while making macaroni and cheese another
person that she was chasing her kid and
she bought it she got a kitten that day
she brought a kitten home which is
another reason why maybe her and her mom
were Fighting’s I don’t believe she
asked her mom but that’s neither here
nor there but she had told two people
that she caught it while chasing her
kitten she don’t so there’s this looks
bad this does not look good for her not
at all so let’s continue to talk about
her hands a little because another thing
on her hands that would become an
integral part of the cases she had a
fresh manicure now why is this important
because she had a freshman my French
manicure has white tips and she had just
got her nails done and her nails were in
pristine condition and we know this
because they were photographing that cut
and her nails were in perfect shape and
so the defense would say all right
you’re gonna tell me she stabbed her mom
over times and she did not get as
much as not a chip on these nails that’s
a good point though no I mean I would
say could
she have been wearing gloves possibly
I’ve heard that used before um with that
with nail-polish and manicures I’ve
heard that actually brought up in
defense cases so I don’t think it’s a
bad point it still doesn’t trust me I’d
say the kid still looks bad but I think
that that was one of the defense’s
strongest arguments was that manicure
not sure if that’s the strongest
argument how great their case was but
okay the other explanation for the cut
on the hand from the defense because
they also I mean I’m sorry from the
prosecution because they also said like
all right if you’re gonna stab someone
you would expect to cut on the palm of
her hand why is this on the back of her
hand well when they get to the crime
scene I’m going a little bit out of
order here for a purpose they notice
that there was a break in a glass like
someone had punched through a glass to
open to break in a door so they claimed
well Noura did that she was staging the
scene when you break glass with your
hand as you’re pulling it out that’s
exactly what that cut would be
consistent with okay so let’s talk about
the she comes home finds her mother
obviously she is according to Noura she’s
in shock she calls this — call
is available and you can listen to it
and she is hysterical screaming
hyperventilating really and you know
she’s quite the actress if she did not
do this when she finds her mother she
runs to the neighbor’s house to get help
one of the neighbors goes back to the
house with her with his gun and he’ll
testify at trial saying it was very
strange to me that Noura believed there
was an intruder in her house who killed
her mother yet she ran in ahead of me
when I’m the one who had the gun so that
was a huge point at trial and Noura says
there’s no handbook for this sort of
thing I’m with Noura on this one people
are always judging you like the —
calls she’s too hysterical she’s not
hysterical enough she ran in first I’m
gonna go with her you act irrational in
irrational situations anything I totally
agree there was something else about the
— call that the prosecution would
focus on the : operator says to Noura
has your mom been shot and Noura says no
she doesn’t say I don’t know
she says straight out no now the
prosecution will say you have this woman
who’s been stabbed over times she
his blood soaked how are you so sure
that she was not shot and the
prosecution will say well because you’re
the one who did this and you did not
shoot her so that was something that
worked against Noura as well I think
that’s a fair enough point I haven’t
seen obviously I haven’t seen you know
any photos or anything but if you are
covered so much in blood how would she
know so yeah I can at least understand
that argument yeah two other pieces of
evidence at the crime scene that would
become guessing say of utmost importance
at the trial is as I mentioned that
class so they had a garage door and on
the garage after you have the garage
door there was a side entrance to the
garage door that door was locked and the
garage door was apparently locked when
the police got there however someone had
broke in through the door that goes into
the house it’s almost as if someone was
trying to stage it and they forgot like
oh there’s another door this door had
anything call it a butterfly lock it’s a
kind of lock that you could only see
from the inside so there was a regular
lock that if you were gonna break in you
would break the glass by the doorknob
okay this glass was broken higher up in
like a middle glass pane so the person
who broke the glass it’s almost as if
they knew that there was this other
hidden lock because there’s no reason
why an intruder would break the glass at
that point okay I understand so the
theory here being that Noura knows her
house knows the locks and that’s why
she’s excited
it could also I mean I’m just playing
devil’s advocate here there could be
someone else who knows the house and
well that’s that’s exactly right
I don’t think the prosecution or the
defense would say this was stranger
because I mean we can we’ll talk about
this towards the end there’s a million
reasons why the person who killed
Jennifer knew her and knew her quite
well okay to me one another one of the
most damning things against Noura was
somebody made a call from inside the
house close to : a.m. to her friend
Clark and hung up ten minutes later Noura
called Clark from her cell phone it’s
almost as if Noura was calling Clark and
then realized oh shit I’m not supposed
to be home and they can’t find any
reason to believe that Jen
ever even knew this friend and Jennifer
had no history of ever calling any of
Noura’s friends and this was that close
to : a.m. huh that doesn’t look good
either
that looks very bad for me before we
continue on with some of this evidence I
do just want to take a minute to discuss
the prosecutor who tried this case okay
Amy Weirich so she reminds me a bit of
patty precioso who we talked about a bit
and Melanie McGuire’s case she was a win
at all she had a wooden at all costs
mindset she worked in an office it was
Shelby County Tennessee and they had a
history of withholding evidence and a
few of the lawyers or the prosecutors
would actually come under ethics
violations Brady violations and over
there were Jeff Brady violations was one
of the main things but there was they
had a laundry list of issues in that
office whew this is getting interesting
yeah well her victory in this case sorry
spoiler alert she does have a victory in
this case it actually helped start her
political career because not long after
she was appointed district attorney of
the whole county and she would be the
first woman to actually hold that post
and she ran on a law-and-order message I
mean that’s really not surprising
especially with these big celebrated
cases it’s not surprising that she’s
gonna go on and you know kind of
catapult to the next level or another
career just like Patti Presley
exactly Noura was arrested on September
th which was almost four months
after the murder and she was charged
with second-degree murder she pled not
guilty she was held without bail and
then they changed it to half a million
in bond but she couldn’t afford that so
she actually spent . years in jail
before the trial actually began which is
not totally unusual we talked about that
I write about this all the time people
spend a long time and are supposed
speedy system just sitting in jail so
really the evidence against Noura was
entirely circumstantial in fact there
were two unknown full female DNA
profiles that were found at the scene
and a third partial profile in addition
there was hair in Jennifer’s hand that
did not match Noura’s so you would think
that these few bits of information would
have halted the case but no why not
pushed straight forward tunnel vision
and this
was itwas on hair in her hand yes like a
very big deal to me that’s a struggle
you would think so but neither side
tested the hair to this day well the
defense is clearly scared it’s gonna be
Noura well it definitely not Noura it did
not match Noura’s color but the defense
had another reason why they didn’t want
to test this hair okay I know why the
prosecution wouldn’t but the defense why
because they said if it was they
suspected it was Jennifer’s hair and if
it was Jennifer’s hair that does nothing
for them nothing at all so the
prosecution of course you know there’s
well why do you think what is that the
prosecution want to test it Paul if it’s
not Noura then it’s clearly you know we
say that’s not of evidentiary value
it just shows right they can pick and
choose what’s of evidentiary value which
i think is pretty shitty the prosecution
of course is gonna claim that’s not why
we didn’t test it we didn’t test it
because it was a poorly managed crime
scene which there there were a lot of
people who would agree that it was
poorly managed there was an unknown
chain of custody on that hair and that
becomes a big problem okay that is a
problem and I would agree so that kind
of taints the whole exactly so besides
that there were apparently over
people in that crime scene and they even
some people even say that the unknown
DNA profile profiles that were found at
the scene could have actually just been
from one of these or more people that
were stomping through that scene they
also had this new kitten that was
apparently trampling all over the scene
and they were claiming well maybe the
kitten brought in some unknown female
DNA okay I’m gonna not go with the
kitten did it just I understand I’m also
gonna say Noura’s a young girl doesn’t
she also have friends in the house and I
don’t know isn’t it possible that there
are other people coming through well
just a few weeks before her and her mom
went to Florida and Perry her ex
on-again off-again boyfriend threw a
party at her house Noura knew about it
and said it was okay so so yeah we can
speculate there were people in and out
of that house he claims nope no one went
in that house
however the unknown DNA was found on the
bed and there was also a condom wrapper
found in that room that could not be
connected to Jennifer or Noura so these
high school students probably use the
bedroom and had sex absolutely and
that’s why they can’t match this unknown
female DNA because it’s like some young
girl who doesn’t have a criminal history
that makes sense for me now the DNA is a
wash I get it yeah so okay so as I said
winerack pushed forward during Noura’s
trial her character was destroyed a bevy
of witnesses testified regarding how
bratty she was all of her friends turned
on her all of her friends with benefits
boyfriends turned on her they called her
a party girl her own family testified
against her I remember that yeah Noura
has her aunt yep exactly
Jennifer had two sisters they both
testified against Noura and they’ll claim
the reason why they did is because they
supported Noura at the beginning they pay
for her to have an apartment before she
was arrested they gave her money and
apparently the aunt said to her you know
just tell us where you were at those
unknown times like we’re with you on
this and Noura couldn’t give them an
answer and at that point they were done
and they just flipped and they were on
the prosecution side cuz if possible
Noura doesn’t remember cuz she was so
initiated I think it could be and I
think I think I’ve heard Noura say an
interview she interviews quite a bit was
she was just so angry that her family
didn’t believe her she was kind of just
like fu I don’t need to tell you
anything
whether that helped her or not who knows
and then there was also that’s not the
tact I would take right now people
helping me but then again you know I
understand me if you are innocent you’ve
done something I understand digging in
and feeling pretty indignant about it
there was also a cousin that Noura was
quite close with she he turned on her as
well Wow
did anyone stand by her she had a few
people and some of her supporters at
trial or the people that are still with
her today that were there picking her up
at the gates when she came out so the
people that stand by her stand by her
but she doesn’t have any family left
because she was not she didn’t know her
father’s family her father was then
murdered her mother’s family Noura claims
they never liked her because she was
born from nas me who they did not like
at all cuz he was abusive and it was
this whole thing okay so all obviously
all the things we talked about that’s
what was brought up at trial another
thing that people brought up in trial
her friends when they came to comfort
Noura shortly after she found her mother
dead and everyone knew it was going on
she smelled fresh and people would say
after a whole night of partying and she
claims she was drinking smoking pot
smoking cigarettes and her friend said
you know a few friends said when they
hooked her it’s not like she just got
out of the shower the showers and
bathrooms were
in the house but they also we don’t know
Jennifer could have showered before she
after she got home before she turned in
for bed before she was murdered it’s
hard to say I feel like there’s any
number of reasons that could have been
that would not be a strong piece of
evidence for me yeah the biggest thing
that stuck out in the final closing
arguments and this will become very
important later why Rex stood facing
Noura and said just tell us where you
were Noura just tell us where you were
that is all we are asking no objection
to the defense objects they did but it
didn’t matter
so the judge overrules that objection
and that and sighin sides with the
prosecution continue on we have this
dramatic moment where the prosecutors
actually yelling at Noura didn’t want to
testify nor did not testify and actually
her trial was live on Court TV
in February so you can see these
closing arguments and her defense
attorney did a pretty interesting
closing as well she just started pulling
out blankets and pillows and comforters
and said where’s Noura’s blood
Noura’s DNA was nowhere at this crime
scene and she’s just pulling out like a
magician out of a hat showing the jury
blood-soaked things Noura’s DNA is
nowhere a lot of drama I like it and of
course the prosecution is gonna say well
isn’t that curious why is her DNA know
where she lived in that house oh we
heard that in the Melanie my voice it’s
like did she clean it up but how’d she
cleaned up her mother was blood so this
is this is the problem though the DNA is
there you’re guilty the DNA is not there
if you don’t it also occurs to me that
Noura claims went that when she saw her
mom dead she went over to her mom and
shook her if her mom was this
blood-soaked
why would Noura have no blood on her
hands at all maybe that’s why she
smelled fresh though maybe she gets
blood in her freaks out and before
anyone comes washes her hand now because
the neighbors were there soon enough
that they would have been able or at
least according to the story according
to the timeline but I do find that
interesting her nails and her she had
zero blood on her alpha- doing a white
skirt when this happened when they found
her but also she had changed her outfit
from the Italian festival to the
Walgreens video oh right where the
clothes she has apparently she had them
and they were fine but the police I
don’t think were ever able to say for
sure what she was wearing it was just
witness testimony like shooting a black
shirt but they don’t know what black
shirt Noura could just say I changed but
she said she always kept you know she
changed sometimes I
it’s almost like you changed your party
outfit cuz she wants to so many
different things I don’t know I don’t
know I couldn’t afford that many clothes
no I know so she did not oh so you asked
before if Noura testified so Noura did not
testify and I think that was the right
move if you’ve ever seen an interview
with Noura she comes off pretty harsh I
mean if she is innocent she has every
right to be she is angry very very angry
okay so I’m gonna come off hostile
belligerent and she would have alien
island exactly also I think the attorney
was worried about the effect of the
medication or I was taking she was on a
host of medications for anxiety for
depression and her defense attorney
believed that she would never be able to
hold up against cross-examination
and like I said I think it’s probably
just that she’s not likable she was in
angsty teen and she might not have
though she had different stories she
couldn’t account for exactly she also
there was a lot of gaps in her timeline
and the fact that her cell phone had
zero activity on it when she was this
teenager who was always on her phone and
she was talking to all these people and
then all sudden silence for two hours
yeah I don’t think they should have put
her on I think that was the right call
not putting her on the stand hey gray so
after nine hours of deliberation of a
jury made up of mostly of women I
believe they were four men they found
Noura guilty and she was sentenced to
years and nine months without the
possibility of parole
what was she found guilty of was it
second-degree murder okay mm-hmm
all right I’m not surprised that I think
they could have probably got
first-degree some you know they prop it
it’s possible but they went with the
safer about the one they knew they could
get because I mean there’s no physical
evidence and it’s entirely
circumstantial it’s pretty strong
circumstantial evidence it reminds me a
lot of them acquire case actually I was
just as we’re sitting here thinking I’m
going this sounds very familiar a lot of
the aspects of this case and there’s
these things and the reason why it
reminds me of McGuire is because there
are these things that are so clearly
reasonable doubt and there are these
things that are just if it’s not a
coincidence I just don’t understand
they’re seemingly very indicative of
some type of guilt so and when we talk
about my final verdict on this we’ll
talk a lot about that okay so of course
she appealed the appellate court
affirmed the conviction they did agree
that the closing was an issue so the
closing remember she said where were you
that’s violating you know the defendant
has the right
not testify remember the right against
self-incrimination yeah
so by Wyrick saying tell us where you
are she’s implying to the jury that Noura
is hiding something absolutely and the
appellate court said we agree with you
that that was wrong however it was
harmless I knew that was coming
but I I almost agree with them they were
pretty much saying the other evidence is
so damning it actually did not change
the course of things I don’t know that I
agree with that I think that is really
the last thing a jury’s gonna hear is
this woman yelling at her tell us where
you were and I don’t know I think that’s
actually probably important
well that Tennessee Supreme Court would
agree with you Megan
all right but that wasn’t it because
they were something else
the prosecution never turned over a
statement by an important witness who so
andrew hammock was an individual that
Noura claims that she you know spoke to
that night he claims that he spoke to
Noura on the phone then he wrote up a
statement to the police saying actually
i was high on ecstasy and i didn’t have
my phone with me the whole night this
statement by this star one of the star
witnesses was never handed over it
that’s a Brady violation
oh sure is so based largely in part on
this newly discovered evidence the
Tennessee Supreme Court unanimously
overturned Noura’s conviction you only
need three but she got all five justices
and this was in August of so what’s
gonna happen now is the prosecution
gonna retry the case so that was the
question usually they do I mean usually
they go at it but I don’t know this is
almost like disgraced so I I don’t know
Amy do well the Tennessee Supreme Court
did say that wire expeller to disclose
the hammock note was a flagrant
violation of Norris constitutional
rights and also they they continued on
to say that Warwick’s closing saying
tell us where you were that’s all we’re
asking was a violation of the
Constitution’s protection of the right
to remain silent so because of these two
obviously they were not giving this case
back to wire Rick’s office the Pratt I
mean the defense would say no way if you
want to retry this case take it to
another give it
to another districts so the prosecution
that ended up getting it they did not
necessarily want to take it to trial
because a lot of witnesses at this point
were no longer around either they were
not willing to testify or they could not
locate them so what happened was
oh I’m sorry can I back up one minute I
just want to tell you how Noura found out
that the Tennessee Supreme Court
overturned her conviction sure she
actually found out just by city she was
in prison sitting on the toilet and she
saw you know like the ticker on the
screen and it said Tennessee Supreme
Court overturned Noura
Jackson’s conviction can you imagine it
had been over nine years and she found
out not from her lawyer but from
watching TV I mean that’s one way to
spend your yeah so on May th
lawyers for Noura decided that it would
be a good idea for her to take a plea
because going to trial and Noura didn’t
want to take a plea she maintains her
innocence and actually she even said in
prison it seems that’s such a cop-out
and she didn’t want to let down her
friends in prison because they all say
no you need your day in court and you
know don’t let them win if you take a
plea it’s just a cop-out blah blah blah
she’s also spent three and a half years
is this gonna be an Alford plea Megan
Megan Megan it is an Alford plea sorry
no and this was not smart of her to take
it out for a plea and I’ll tell you why
so first of all for those of you don’t
know an Alford plea it pretty much
allows a defendant to acknowledge that
the state has enough evidence to convict
you which is why you don’t want to go to
trial but you maintain your innocent so
it’s the strange thing that you’re
playing almost like you’re playing
guilty because you’re you’re taking on
the charge because the conviction stands
on your record but you’re saying hey I’m
innocent you are I mean it’s it’s a it’s
a way that you can plead guilty without
admitting guilt and and for some people
you know they just don’t want to say
that they did it some people haven’t
done it no
so the problem this happens in the West
Memphis Three case as well and a couple
others there yeah well and a lot of not
a lot but their case in a hand yes in a
handful of these cases you look at the
Alford plea like especially you know
Damien Echols and Wes Wes was three and
you say this guy is innocent but you
would understand like he wanted to get
the hell out of there
right he was on death row so like I
understand it but at the same time
now she has this you know well so what
she did was she pled guilty to voluntary
manslaughter so they did drop it down
they gave her time served they did not
she was told that they were going to buy
her lawyer so that’s why she claims she
did it because she was claimed that she
was going home that day and then it was
turned out that she had another
months that she had to sit in prison so
she was not very happy so she was not
released until but she was released
now do you want to take a guess on why
this Alford plea comes back to bite her
in the ass has to do with money
yeah well you can’t get compensated if
your so there’s a compensation scheme I
know so that’s what I’m saying you can’t
be compensated for a wrongful conviction
if you accept a plea because in the eyes
of the state you are then guilty you are
correct so she did not get exonerated
just yet she is working with the
Innocence Project which we’ll talk about
in a minute but you are correct if she
does get exonerated there’ll be no
compensation for her from state statue
or you know she can’t sue anyone also
she wanted her parents inheritance and
her and Jennifer’s family fought her
tooth and nail over this of course the
law says that murderers cannot benefit
from their crime from their crimes but
in addition to that the family was
fighting her on it they ended up
settling I think the family just didn’t
want to deal with her anymore because
she was you know she was fighting them
on it and I think what ended up
happening it’s an undisclosed amount but
the family that I’m splitting it so
North did get some money okay so Noura
when she was needed it for legal fees
yeah nothing coming out well yeah you’re
right she did have a few supporters but
she really has no family so in she
was released she lived in Memphis for a
little while then she moved to Nashville
with her girlfriend and had a girlfriend
that she had met in prison and then more
recently she currently lives in Brooklyn
she’s attending college she is worked
with Amanda Knox on some stuff regarding
the way the media just you know
assassinates these females characters
which cuz obviously a man that knocks
had quite an issue with that as well oh
yeah she’s also working on a program
mentoring individuals who are
incarcerated as she does a lot of work
now she works with
and Flom doing some I guess advocacy
work so Jason bombs had her on the show
as well and for people who don’t know he
deals primarily with wrongful
convictions yep he’s on the board at the
Innocence Project he’s one of the first
board members he does a lot of advocacy
work so what you’re saying really is
that Noura Jackson is being treated as a
case of wrongful conviction well that’s
what I find so interesting because a lot
of you know like Emily Bazelon spoke
charged is just she’s a New York Times
writer she’s an amazing author amazing
brilliant and she talks about noir in
her book she backs Noura like I said
Jason Flom highly respected that nYSSA’s
project took on her case they’re working
to see if they could use updated DNA
methods to identify the source of the
DNA that was found at the scene okay cuz
they want to fully exonerate Noura and as
it says in charge the book it says you
know Noura’s on board with this and of
course they could find just like
anything they could find something that
works against Noura
but Noura’s you know game she wants this
testing to go through so it will be
really interesting to see if Noura can be
fully exonerated this also reminds me of
Melanie’s case again the untested DNA
that she like banks to be tested but I
don’t think that I think the hairs gonna
end up being Jennifer’s hair I think
what they really want to find out is who
those unknown DNA profiles right but
like I said I think they’re probably
just noir his friends could be happen to
be there okay
also Noura you know she’s very public now
she says she was tortured by the plea
deal I want to quickly talk about
alternate theories okay if Noura didn’t
do it who the hell did right I mean it’s
possible Jennifer’s the man she was
seeing that well even so the man she was
seen that night was quickly they were
quickly able to eliminate him but there
was another man who was an on-again
off-again boyfriend she was dating a
pastor who looked about an hour and a
half away he did call Jennifer that
night at midnight and then hung up and
claims he hung up because he realized it
was a little too late to talk to her
it’s fair enough
so the why is this guy he had Marc Irvin
why is he even of interest well his
alibi is that he was at home sleeping so
nobody can confirm nor deny that well at
midnight that seems reasonable right
there
are people that say he was angry and
controlling he also showed a very strong
interest in the case and we know that
sometimes people that commit a crime
insert themselves into the case because
they want to see what the police know
and what they don’t know he was dating
her and she was murdered
I would be interested on that alone
right but he’s as from whatever I found
they quickly I think it was just a case
of tunnel vision okay
Norris seemed like the more obvious
suspect so they went with that I do want
to talk about how personal this crime
was so we do know that if someone has
stabbed over times that is emotional
that is anger also Jennifer was found
with a basket over her face now why
would someone cover a victim’s face
because they don’t want to look at it
they don’t want to look them in the eye
they feel guilty that’s something if
you’re gonna kill your mom you probably
feel a little guilty about it you don’t
want to see you know so the fact that
her face was covered the fact that she
was stabbed over times really lends
itself to a really personal and there’s
no robbery or sexual assault oh thank
you there’s no evident they did a rape
kit no evidence of sexual assault
remember I said they found that condom
wrapper they were not able to link it to
Jennifer at all at first it seems like
oh this is interesting nothing nothing
was missing from the house at first they
went in and they said oh this house is
ransacked but it turns out Jennifer was
a bit of a shop had a shopping problem
she was a hoarder so they were shit
everywhere okay but her friends and
family say like nope that’s just
Jennifer so nothing missing no sexual
assault it’s a rape to emotional killing
emotional rage killing the only other
theory that has been thrown out there is
perhaps whoever killed Naz me maybe
killed Jennifer but Jennifer and Naz me
had no they were it’s just it’s just an
unfortunate coincidence that two people
would be murdered that had the same
daughter but other than that I don’t
even think that’s a little there’s no
connection but something else that might
not look good for Noura is that when Naz
me passed away he had over . million
in his estate and Noura’s mother was the
one who was charged with handling the
estate and there were witnesses who
testified that they heard Noura and
Jennifer fighting over the money and
Noura would say just give me the fucking
money and Jennifer did not want to give
Noura the money because she was young
teenager who wasn’t responsible so that
could have been a motive if you think
Noura did this I also just want to point
out
that you know how rare matricide is the
killing of a mother right remember we
talked about this in the Juliet and
Pauline case a couple of weeks ago right
it’s your thing now and we talk right
apparently so
less than some reports say less than %
some put it at closer to % very rare
all murders our matricide and / are
actually committed by an adult son so
matricide by a woman killing her mother
at that age extremely rare doesn’t mean
it doesn’t happen though of course not
so where do I stand on this I was just
about to ask I couldn’t wait
I am so torn I haven’t felt this way in
a while I know
um Rebecca when she interviewed us for
dialogue she had asked us which case do
you want if you could pick one case to
be solved what would it be this might be
my new one yeah all right so I was gonna
wait to offer my own opinion but okay so
you feel like at the end you just can’t
Estelle I want to believe her because
I’ve seen so many interviews with her
and she is so emotional and you feel for
her watching this and she it seems so
genuine so genuine she seems like such a
genuine person and like I said so many
respectable brilliant people back her
that that alone makes me want to back
her because I put Jason Flom and Emily
Bazelon on such a pedestal that if they
think she is how could she not be but
but you have questions I have questions
kind of like with Melanie’s case if I
was on that jury I could not have
convicted her because there’s reasonable
doubt same way I don’t know that
Melanie’s I can’t say I think Melanie’s
innocent but I can say on that jury I
would not have gone guilty same thing in
this case maybe she was involved in some
way I I’m not sure I hate to leave it
like that but well I feel like that’s
your opinion at the end of everything
you’ve just presented me and of course
I’ll go down the brass key I’m gonna go
down the rabbit hole after this and I’m
gonna look at everything you’ve just
suggested and of course I hope our
listeners will do the same thing there’s
a lot available out there right so let’s
all go down the rabbit hole together but
from what you presented I would not feel
comfortable either way making rendering
a decision I see you know I see that
there are definitely some holes in the
prosecution’s story
I probably I mean you know I’d probably
acquit because you know I think there
probably would be reasonable doubt but I
also see some evidence that’s pretty
damning so I don’t know that I would
feel comfortable calling her a wrongful
conviction but I certainly wouldn’t feel
comfortable calling her a murderer at
this point either and this is the
reality sometimes we’re left with more
questions than answers exactly but I am
very happy that the innocent project is
working on this right and also remember
her nas me this case is still open and
it’s still pretty active I read an
article from like a year and a half ago
from you know the Memphis Police
Department is still really actively
working on this new angle that it was
Mexican drug cartel related so the fact
that that’s an active investigation and
this like maybe there is some link who
knows know look if if Noura is a wrongful
conviction I really really hope
sincerely hope that she is exonerated
and that she is the one who has the last
word on this issue I agree because
that’s her mother and her father was
killed and she dealt with a lot
obviously all right well another good
job Amy thank you so much for today’s
case Thank You Megan thank you all for
listening okay great we’ll see you all
next time
Women & Crime is written and
hosted by Meghan Sacks and Amy Schlosberg
our producer and editor is James Varga
our music is composed by Dessert media
[Music]
The sources I used for this episode
charged the book by Emily Bazelon also
her article in New York Times magazine
also several articles from the daily
Memphian ABC / CBS hours okay
thanks everyone for listening thank you