Episode Transcript
The below text transcription was is intended for audience reference and search purposes. Because it is generated automatically by computer, please forgive mis-translations, spelling and the lack of really any structured grammar.
This is the story of a woman whose work in the
criminal justice system has shined the
spotlight on wrongful convictions in the
United States and while her work has
enlightened us all the case that
inspired her efforts is one that just
might haunt us.
[Music]
This is episode 21, the Kathleen Zellner
story
[Music]
Hey Amy good to see you today.
Hi Megan
Miss you I miss you too and I can’t wait
til we’re recording again together I
know let’s give some shoutouts are you
ready my favorite part let’s do it I
know I love this too
ok first is and Reena from Switzerland
thank you and Reena and Reena actually
helped us with some social media stuff
she like volunteered her time and made
us even like a little document and I
just and she didn’t make us feel old
when we had no clue about I felt old
anyway but I love you and Reena thank
you so much
we have Baily from Illinois and she came
from listening from true crime obsessed
heard about us and then came over
oh thanks Bailey and Bailey has a
question for us how often do you think
the backlog of DNA testing keeps victims
from justice and perpetrators from being
charged men and women and what can we do
to help end the backlog I love that
question that further the answer to the
first part is a strong yes so I think
the number one thing we could do is ask
Congress to prioritize funding so I’ve
read some reports that say there’s over
, rape kits that are currently
sitting untested so that means a hundred
thousand victims who have not received
justice that also means potentially a
hundred thousand rapists who have not
been apprehended and just as bad it
could also very well mean that people
that are wrongfully convicted that are
wrongfully charged of rapes that these
rape kits could possibly exonerate did
you know something interesting Megan
that some labs consider backlog after
sample has not tested for only days I
had no idea even more surprising is NIJ
considers that a backlog after only
days so it is interesting to think about
when does a sample become considered
backlog versus you know a current sample
I think it’s all about just prioritizing
funding yeah I think one of the things
that happened was that they were
collecting DNA for a long time but
didn’t have the technology all the
sudden there’s the technology but then
there’s all these untested kits already
so then where do you start and so I
think the backlog was a function of that
and began from the beginning and now we
just need more DNA technicians more
money and it really is a funding issue
and unfortunately it’s not always easy
to get
funding no it’s not but we hope we hope
that there is funding for this issue
it’s really really important I think
we’re going to see that happen thank you
for your question belly hope that
answers it next we have Brooke from
Flagstaff Arizona and Brooke actually
wrote to us suggesting that we visit
Sedona and Flagstaff saying how pretty
they are on our trip that were taking
this summer when you say our trip you
don’t mean me and you you and James
maybe if it’s the Sedona right yes I was
actually born in Arizona fun fact Sedona
is breathtakingly beautiful you need to
go there okay thank you so much for the
ride and then we have a friend that we
can visit when we go I was gonna say
that I keep saying that like oh so we’ll
see you there everyone’s maybe like oh
my god these girls are really gonna look
us up thanks for the suggestion Brooke
we have Cindy from Utah ironically Cindy
we might also be taking a road trip out
there and when I say we I mean me and
James sorry
we have Cassie from Columbia Missouri
question she is curious what we think
about the Laurie valo case oh I’ve been
on this for a while I actually wrote
back to Cassie but let me just also say
that I think it’s too soon to say what
the cause of death is for the kids and
I’m talking about for tighly and JJ I
read something that it said they died a
gruesome death as I read it I realized
they still didn’t know how it was way
too premature they should not be
publishing anything like that I mean we
hope they didn’t suffer like it’s like
now that we know we just have to hope
that it was as painless and as quick as
possible in terms of Lori Val oh I don’t
know about her mental state and I would
need to know more about it what I’ve
read is that she believed her kids were
zombies and other people were zombies
and they had Dark Souls and there she
had to do something to eradicate it I
know that she was very heavily
influenced by Chad day Belle’s teachings
and two things I said when she goes with
the legal strategy I’m gonna assume that
either they’re going to try to pin it on
her brother who was gone or they’re
gonna try to plead it insanity defense
and I would love to cover this case when
we get a little more information as you
mentioned it’s so early on so it’s
really hard to speculate and I think
it’s problematic when people speculate
having all the facts anyway right yeah
so we will actually come back to this
when we have more information thank you
for your support
we have McKenna from Los Angeles I love
your name McKenna her sister and her mom
also listen to the podcast thanks like a
family thing that we know and we have
Sara Lou cozy and Sara is actually a
direct appeal listener as well Sara what
do you think innocent or guilty we need
to know and finally we have Tamara
Hawthorne from Queensland Australia
oh how amazing Thank You Tamara
Australia is beautiful I had the honor
of going there Megan two years ago and I
have to say it is one of the most
beautiful places I’ve ever visited
I remember do you remember I could have
gone as well but I was afraid to get on
the plane and go that far
yes you’re a baby you missed out trip I
held a koala and a kangaroo let me say
Tamara actually also has a whole squad
of listeners as well so thank you and
let me also say that we’re reading
Tamara’s name this time and not last
week because James forgot her on the
last list your fire James fired
sorry Tamara hope hope we don’t forget
you in the future we’ll blame it on
James oh yes and that’s it thank you so
much everyone thanks for writing us
again love the questions and we really
like the engagement so today’s case is
one I am super excited about and it’s so
excited to talk to Amy about so based on
my description do you know who I’m
covering today Amy I’m gonna have to say
Kathleen Zellner
ding ding you got it it is Kathleen
Zellner many of you might know her from
making of a murderer part she is
Steven Avery’s lawyer and we are going
to actually get to a couple of her cases
and updates in the Steven Avery case but
I want to begin by giving you a look at
Kathleen’s backgrounds and what led her
down this path to become the lead
wrongful conviction attorney I would say
or lead a wrongful conviction
exoneration attorney in the United
States because to date Kathleen has
exonerees to her name which is just an
incredible feat Kathleen was born on May
th
to Winifred and Owen Daniel Thomas she
was raised by her parents in Midland
Texas along with her seven siblings
until such time when they moved to
Bartlesville Oklahoma from a young age
Cathleen envisioned herself working for
the FBI or as an investigative
journalist and I’d just like to say
Aimee side note that I wanted to work as
a criminal lawyer or like an
investigator as well since I’ve been
about seven or eight so I totally
related to that Cathleen also learned
martial arts at a young age and she was
the type of kid and this will come
probably as no surprise who didn’t
tolerate bullying either for herself or
people around her Cathleen originally
attended Marquette University in
Wisconsin with aspirations of becoming a
history professor but the school was not
for her and after one semester she
transferred to the University of
Missouri where she met her husband
Robert Sellner with whom she has one
daughter her name is Ann and Ann is also
a practicing attorney Robert and
Kathleen would go on to live in Montreal
briefly which is really where Kathleen
finished her Bachelor degree in Montreal
it was reportedly Robert who recognized
that Kathleen’s strong will would serve
her well in the legal field and with his
support and really his urging Kathleen
attended Northern Illinois law school
Kathleen worked for other firms for a
bit but she actually opened her own firm
specializing in medical malpractice in
also handling prisoner abuse cases
and wrongful conviction cases and while
we all know her for these famous cases
let’s hear how she got to where she is
today because I’m not sure if anyone
knows the case that led her to only want
to defend truly innocent people do you
know this case or no no maybe once you
say it but I don’t know who you’re
alluding to okay this is the case that I
did not know her for either and I found
so interesting and I fell down a rabbit
hole on this one and this is the Larry
Euler case nope no where I see Amy’s I’m
still blank on that one so now it sounds
vaguely familiar but I definitely don’t
know okay shortly after zelner opened
that practice in
an anti-death penalty organization asked
her to take on the appeal of Larry Euler
convicted of murdering and dismembering
a year old boy Ayler was a young
attractive house painter in the s
and s living in Indiana he had a very
troubled childhood though filled with
alcoholism and abuse by his parents and
several stepfathers eyler also struggled
with his sexuality and he had feelings
of self-loathing because he was gay and
it was said that
islur would kill young gay men after
sexual encounters because this inner
conflict that he had now I just told you
that he was convicted of dismembering
and killing a boy and then I’m saying
now there are multiple victims here so
keep that in mind
I’ll ER lived with Robert David little
he was an older professor who worked at
Indiana State University but this was a
platonic relationship because I learn
was also he was younger he was
attractive little was a little a little
bit older and not so attractive it was
just a platonic living situation but
Iowa also was involved with a married
man a man who was married to a woman and
this was actually a serious relationship
and the wife knew about it and
apparently was tolerant of this
relationship either was back-and-forth
between them but when he was with little
little paid the bills and supposedly it
was so that aisle arose the young
handsome guy who would kind of bring
home young handsome men for a little to
engage with as well because he was also
gay so I think that he was kind of you
know the one who was able to get other
people yeah I mean it’s a it wasn’t a
great picture from the start of their
arrangement but dubbed the highway
killer Eiler killed an estimated to
young men many of whom were found
near highways he disposed of their
bodies on the side of highways Robert
David little was also charged with
murder as an accomplice and at least one
of these murders but he was acquitted of
all the charges and returned his
University position when zelner came
onto the case it was at the part where i
lo was in his appeals and she worked
hard to broker a deal with prosecutors
and at first i lose family I mean they I
looked at the footage and they were you
know they defended him and said that he
couldn’t have done this and whatnot but
I allure actually confessed to Kathleen
that he had committed a number of these
murders and he said that he would reveal
the names of his other victims if they
would take the death penalty off the
table because he had been sentenced to
death for that one murder so Kathleen
Zellner went and started brokering these
deals and it had to happen with
different prosecutors because there were
actually many jurisdictions it wasn’t
just in Indiana it was a couple of
Midwestern states where the bodies were
found so she went to work and she got
most of the prosecutors to agree but
there was one who really wouldn’t and
the deal ultimately fell through and
Eyler would died of aids-related
complications in prison in but what
happened after that was also very unique
so one year after his death Kathleen
Zellner held a press conference in which
she revealed the names of Eilers other
victims she said that I’ll erm ain’t
aend the whole time that Robert David
little the professor he lived with was
absolutely an accomplice in several of
the murders also even the ones he was
not he still knew about them and I’ll
erm ain’t aim that little actually
committed one of the murders himself and
zelner revealed this information as well
at the press conference
how was she allowed to do that isn’t
there like attorney-client privilege so
I’m glad you asked that because that’s
exactly what I thought he gave her
permission to do so so he went he said
when I die you could yes he said when he
died I guess she had said it was like
the only redeeming act he thought he
could give was to at least give the
families their you know their their
remains and and what happened to their
loved ones so that’s why she was allowed
to at that time Kathleen Zellner vowed
that she would never work again for
someone she thought was guilty that she
would only work to defend the innocent
you know it’s interesting to teach I
teach serial killers and I actually
didn’t know Larry Eiler so I fell down
such a rabbit hole with this when I’m
looking at everything and especially the
connection with the the professor and he
stood trial and he was acquitted and you
know it’s funny because when you started
talking about him I just assumed it was
going to be a wrongful conviction case
and then when you said he killed
twenty-something people I’m like how do
you get wrongfully convicted of being
seriously although you know what I’m
like side note that Atlanta monster
remember they say he has a wrongful
conviction so I don’t know but anyway
okay so Kathleen’s you know got a
thriving practice a few years after the
Eyler case zelner took on a wrongful
conviction case for Joseph burrows have
you ever heard his name I do but I don’t
remember the case Burroughs was awaiting
execution for the murder of an year
old retired farmer named William Doolin
in an attempted robbery
what happened here – so how did they
know this was an attempted robbery of
this year old well these two other
characters are coming to play Chuck Geon
and Gale Potter who is going to play a
very integral role in this case
attempted to cash a $, check of
William Doolin’s but the bank employee
this being like a small town recognized
immediately that this wasn’t the guy
this wasn’t the old farmer so they
called the police because they knew
William dulann well authorities knew
Gale Potter as a local cocaine dealer
who had been arrested previously she’d
been arrested for drug dealing she was a
drug dealer that day when authorities
you know went to talk to her she had
visible cuts and bruises on her you know
the cops bring her in and they’re
grilling her essentially interrogating
her but scaring her
so much so that she falsely implicates
Joseph burrows who she said was a
collector of drug debt money so
basically this was a short thing that
happened the cops are like tell us who
did it
we know that you’re involved in this
somehow but the cops didn’t think
because she’s a woman and I love that we
look at this or gender lens that she’s
capable of this crime right so they
pressure her and she very quickly turns
over Burroughs
name so who was burrows
[Music]
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well he’s a guy who’s got a history of
offenses also though none of them are
violent but he was like a very big burly
looking guy and he kind of fit the bill
like if you look at the pictures of them
and I always encourage people to go
ahead and look he’s big and he looks
tough and I think coupled with his
record the police are seeing the most
logical suspect to them like he looks
like what a murderer is going to look
like so he is arrested and they have
another witness ralph fry but it became
obvious later that ralph fry his
testimony in his statement was
absolutely riddled with inaccuracies but
he also pointed to burrows as the killer
fry and potter so this is ralph fries
the second one is in Gale Potter their
stories didn’t match either I have to
tell you the list goes on and on with
the inaccuracies and the problem in this
death penalty case
enter Kathleen Zellner she took on the
case but she took it on kind of
reluctantly I believe she still kind of
had a bad taste in her mouth from what
happened with the Ayler case most people
had focused on Ralph Fry’s testimony and
trying to work with that like where the
problems were with Fry’s testimony but
zelner actually was really smart she
skillfully worked the prosecution’s star
witness Gail Potter the woman so zelner
started visiting Gail Potter in prison
and just asking her questions and you
know I think she I don’t think she
thought Potter was gonna keep meeting
with her whatnot or keep talking to her
she definitely describes Potter as
having antisocial characteristics for
sure but Potter kept meeting with her
and she kept listening to Kathleen and
during one of these meetings
zelner actually said to her you know I
think it was a woman who shot William
Doolin and Potter really admired Sellner
- she came to admire her and her
response was you’re right
a woman did do it I shot Bill Doolin so
she actually admitted to Kathleen
Zellner that she was the real
perpetrator of the crime yeah and soon
as she’s cutting a deal she trying to go
to deal with at this point
zelner is burrows attorney she can’t
offer her anything she’s advocating for
her client but what would happen was
that not only did she admit it but
zelner skillfully got her to commit –
and she confessed this on the stand
and what happened burrows was released
in he was considered a wrongful
conviction I’m clear as to why this
happened but maybe it was because it was
early apparently he was in like a
multi-million dollar lawsuit but then
settled for $, for his wrongful
conviction
you probably know what happened yeah
because a lot of times you know when you
are gonna file a suit you’re gonna go
big and then it’s like in negotiations
you go back and forth till you settle on
something you’ll see a lot of times they
start in the millions and they end up in
a couple hundred thousands okay I know I
guess there’s bigger settlements now –
I’m assuming because it was and
this was like really pre wrongful
conviction compensation and it sounds
like it wasn’t a DNA exoneration which
is why it’s probably not as famous yeah
okay you know she was really hailed for
her skills in getting I mean getting
someone to confess to the murder
Oh interestingly what happened at Gale
Potter I know we say interestingly all
the time though but I was like really
curious like okay so this woman goes on
the stand that admits like when’s she
gonna be tried with murder right nope
they went perjury at the very least for
first very smart Amy that’s right she
wound up serving five years for perjury
or sentenced to five years for perjury
but that would bother going after her
for the murder nope and that happens
though also we know in wrongful
conviction cases when the prosecutor and
law enforcement they don’t believe it’s
a even with her admitting it they might
still believe now she just said that um
she feels bad or you know any means so
Gayle Potter didn’t really wind up doing
much time at all but Kathleen Zellner
really showed you know how incredibly
smart she was so Kathleen Zellner has
gone on to represent a number of other
people but I would want to talk about
two more cases the ones that maybe
people know about so the first one
another notable case of Kathleen’s is
the Ryan Ferguson case I believe Amy you
know this one quite well so if I get
anything wrong here I’m gonna just step
in and just correct me okay sure I met
Ryan a couple of times at the Innocence
Network conference he’s a very nice guy
that’s right does he attend all
regularly yep and is he usually a
featured speaker there um sometimes
sometimes he’s just there a lot of
exonerees just go to you know for the
camaraderie and also they attend
different sessions with other
genres and right okay let’s talk about
Ryan Ferguson for people who don’t know
him at age Ryan Ferguson was arrested
for the murder of sports editor Kent
Haight hold a man that Ryan didn’t know
Kent had been beaten to death in the
parking lot behind where he worked and
an eyewitness reported seeing two
college-age kids outside near Kent’s car
that night Ryan and his friend Charles
Erickson were in the area
attending Halloween parties Ericson had
apparently a lot of drugs in his system
so he’d done a couple different types of
drugs and he subsequently became
convinced that he was somehow involved
in the murder so he turned himself in to
the police
claiming that he had dreamlike visions
of what he and Ryan had done Ryan when
they pulled him in did talk to the
police but he absolutely maintained his
innocence from the beginning said
absolutely not I was not involved I know
nothing about this Erickson actually had
no memory of the evening either but by
trying time he had a story about him and
Ryan for which he was offered a deal his
story was obviously kind of convincing
at trial a janitor also positively
identified Ryan as being in the parking
lot so you have an eyewitness
identification here and you have Ryan’s
friends saying yes we did this together
a confession and I went as
identification which are two of the
reasons why most wrongful convictions
happen right so again Ryan’s a trial he
maintained his innocence but he was
convicted of the murder and sentenced to
years in prison despite there being
no physical evidence whatsoever to tie
him to the crime later both Erickson and
the janitor recanted saying that they
had both lied due to police coercion
so Erickson was confused I think you
know he was kind of convinced as to a
story and locked into a story that he
would tell but the janitor why would he
lie right that was what I wondered so do
you know this was something about him
there was like a picture of the boys in
the newspaper after they were already
arrested that’s something that may have
been the case but the reason why he lied
and why he was so easily coerced is
because he said that he felt scared by
the police because he was actually a red
a sex offender and so he was like
terrified of the police and you know I’m
sure it was biased account to her so he
felt that kind of pressure so they both
took the stand later they both said that
they lied Ferguson was released and
exonerated after serving nine years in
prison maybe closer to ten as I
understand it but I I also when I was
reading some of the articles saw that he
wound up staying they didn’t release him
right away so after the testimony of
these two they got on the stand and they
recanted Zellner said she thought
Ferguson would be released pretty
quickly because that’s usually the way
that would work but I think he was still
in prison for another year or so I think
it took really quite some time but he
was exonerated and Netflix released the
documentary dream killer about the case
and if you want to watch it in which
zelner is also featured and Ryan
Ferguson goes down as one of her one of
her exonerations Amy you want to add
anything to that I’m not sure I missed
anything you did a good good summary
there but thank you just something that
shows Ryan’s character is even though
Erickson implicated him he’s actually
fighting for Chris Erickson is in prison
serving years right right now
actually I think it’s for lying under
oath but either way ryan is trying to
get him out even though he screwed him
so bad I did not know that so I saw that
Erickson he got years in the plea
deal that was the original plea deal in
which he said because he said he
committed the murder – he said that they
did it together so I had no idea that
Ferguson was trying to help get him out - so although he did the plea deal for
I think even if if Ryan is exonerated
based on the fact that this crime didn’t
occur that way then that would also mean
that Erickson probably is innocent as
well right so they really in fact can
only hold him then on lying under oath I
would think the same thing – if he’s
exonerated although no if you think
about this way they could say like
Erickson committed the crime yeah
Ferguson is exonerated and Erickson
dragged him in sighs yes I think
Ferguson he knows he was with Erickson
so I think that’s why he’s so adamant on
helping him because he’s feels bad for
the skin he’s like this kids clearly all
screwed up because he didn’t do it I was
with him that night right I think you’re
right though I think that really
indicates his character I’ve also seen
him speak I’ve not met him like you have
but I’ve watched him
and I mean he really seems like he’s
just seems like such solid character and
and his family and you know he just
seems he seems like a good person yeah I
was gonna say his family’s often at
those conferences as well and they’re a
really amazing group of people and they
really advocated for him and stood by
him and he had a great team was he’s one
of the lucky ones he had a great team of
people and one of the lucky ones who had
Kathleen Zellner to represent him so
let’s talk about Steven Avery because
most of our listeners will probably know
Kathleen Zellner because of the Steven
Avery case and I’m not sure any of you
watched making of a murderer and making
of a murderer part two I’m embarrassed
to say I’ve never watched it and in its
entirety I’ve seen bits and pieces I’ve
read the book so right you know I know
the case well but okay so zeldor
Kathleen Zellner doesn’t come in until
part two where she is actually handling
his appeal I know a lot of our listeners
watch watch this but for those of you
who may be fuzzy on some of the details
we don’t know the whole story I’m just
gonna give you a brief background on
Avery’s case Steven Avery was wrongfully
convicted for a brutal rape a crime for
which he was exonerated with DNA
evidence after spending years in
prison Amy what’s the average for
exonerees for the time they spend in
prison
I don’t know that offhand there’s
different because some estimates only
include DNA exonerees some include
everyone but it ranges around years
sometimes as high as but I would say
if I had things okay that’s actually
what I thought the number was so good
yeah I know Amy you know the case so
maybe you could give us a little more
background on the wrongful conviction
and exoneration not surprisingly because
we know eyewitness identification errors
are the number one factor in wrongful
convictions the victim picked them from
a lineup but what I find the most
striking here is he had an alibi not
only did he have a receipt he had eye
witnesses who vouched for him regardless
he was still convicted of rape and
attempted murder and something else
about this case I want to point out is
the real perpetrator actually remained
free and he ended up raping more women
and if you look at the pictures they
actually did look alike as we see that
they looked a lot alike I agree
thank you for that background yeah I
forgot he had eyewitnesses I mean
it’s just you don’t think this kind of
thing is gonna happen but obviously our
list
and other people in this area know it
does just two years after Avery’s
release he was arrested for the murder
of Teresa Halbach a young photographer
who went missing after her trip to the
Avery salvage yard she had planned to
take some photos of a vehicle for our
auto trader magazine how Beck’s remains
her buried bones were later found on the
Avery property along with her vehicle
and other items and Avery was arrested
in the course of the investigation
police interrogated Avery’s nephew then
year-old Brendan Dassey
who had a low IQ and who would confess
during a very questionable interview
that he and his uncle raped Teresa
before murdering her and burning her
body have you ever seen the dossier
interviews yes I have I mean it’s it is
hard to watch it it’s it is hard to
watch and I encourage people to watch it
because it’s hard to watch them because
you need to see and you need to see how
you feel about this so dasi and Avery
were both convicted of the murder but in - his conviction was overturned but
later the appellate court restored the
conviction and the US Supreme Court
refused to hear his case which means
that Brendan Dassey
is out of legal options he’s done with
his appeals process I mean there’s
really not much more that’s going to
happen for him
I mean I’m shocked I was really shocked
the supreme court actually refused to
hear the case I really really believed
they would I do think he may have a case
similar to Santoya Brown where he might
start gaining a lot of you know a lot of
footing a lot of support people standing
behind him and maybe it’ll get the
attention and maybe clemencies in his
future no yeah I guess that would be as
only he’s out of Appeals but you’re
right I think there’s been heavy strong
interest in his case a lot of sympathy
towards him and I could see that as an
option so thank you for pointing that
out
okay Avery has always maintained his
innocence and zelner said she took on
his case because she was troubled by the
revelation of certain damning evidence
that did not appear during the initial
searches of Avery’s home but was only
later discovered by police officers same
police officers just so you know who
were part of the civil suit that Avery
filed against them for his wrongful
conviction
million dollars that’s a that’s a
strong incentive you know they searched
his his I think it was his trailer like
a mobile they searched his mobile home
and initially didn’t find Teresa’s keys
but then on a second search when they
came back they find a single key not her
keys but like a single key and it was
like hmm
so zelner said she was watching making
of a murderer and she was like I was a
little bit troubled by some of the
things that I saw here and she said that
she believed he was innocent so she took
on his case and she’s been making some
progress with this case there’s been a
little bit of a back-and-forth like
she’s gotten some hearings that you know
he probably wouldn’t have gotten without
her but there was a request so I think
she was granted a motion to examine
Teresa halbachs remains but then I
believe that the remains are the bones
the police turned it over to Teresa’s
family so I think the motion is kind of
and I’m not really sure what’s happening
exactly with that it’s kind of an icky
gray area right here I’m not sure if you
know that it’s very confusing right she
all I can say is that she’s still in the
appeals process they still have upcoming
hearings so I mean Avery’s got a great
shot if he’s with Kathleen Zellner
somebody once asked me what does when in
direct appeal what does Melanie McGuire
need and I’m like she needs a confession
from someone else where Kathleen Zellner
to represent her because I can’t I can’t
think of what else the case but Kathleen
Zellner
only represents people she believes her
innocent I don’t know if she believed
that Melanie says I know that’s a great
question I would also like to say for
this I know a Kathleen I did I reached
out I sent her an email just to see if
she would be interested in interviewing
um I haven’t heard back from her but I
suspect she’s busy yeah you know
exonerating people left and right
quickly before we get to the end here
but I always wondered what’s your
opinion of if do you have an opinion of
Avery in terms of his innocence or guilt
so the fact that Kathleen Zellner took
the case made me believe more strongly
in his innocence because I trust her
judgment but I go back and forth you
also I don’t know if you came across the
fact that there was like a vial of blood
from an earlier case his blood was on
file because he had a prior record
even before the wrongful conviction yes
and they found that it had
unsealed and punctured I saw that too
but then they like tested the blood and
they couldn’t find a preservative but
then someone said it wouldn’t
necessarily show up so there’s a lot of
things that could be shady but could
also be nothing also there’s something
about the jurors like there were two
jurors that had relatives that worked
for the county in which she had the
lawsuit pending like one was like a
sheriff’s father and someone else and I
don’t remember that as well the case is
such a rabbit hole I don’t know and then
there was something not long ago where
like an inmate confessed to killing
Teresa how back did you hear that one
I’ve heard that too but they didn’t
think it give it much credibility you
know usually you can’t give those things
much credibility so I go back and forth
I think if I had to say I would say I
think he’s innocent
because I think corruption exists and as
much as I would hate to believe it could
exist at this level I think it could
we’ve seen yes we’ve seen cases in which
it does and I think when someone’s
wrongfully convicted it doesn’t look
good for the police department and those
involved put on top of that not always
your reputation harms now you have this
huge lawsuit pending right I mean that’s
that’s motive okay yeah that’s a fair
opinion people ask me this all the time
about Avery because it’s the one that
beauty thing so I’m with you I actually
go back and forth all the time to be
honest I can make a justification on
both sides
I believe the entire process is tainted
it’s like a dirty trial a dirty K
everything is tainted about this but if
I had to go with like if someone was
forcing me to to make an opinion I would
actually go with guilty and I’m not sure
that I have the anything other than just
a gut feeling at the end so the reason I
also when I go you know like I said I
went back and forth a little too is if
he was wrongfully convicted for years
you know I did some of my research on
the effects of those who are wrongfully
convicted yes and individuals who are
wrongfully convicted obviously we could
talk for hours about what that does so
an individual so it doesn’t surprise me
when exonerees end up committing crimes
because of what they’re dealing with
right but it’s rare that they commit a
violent crime right that right though I
don’t know okay that’s fair that’s fair
enough hey you’re the expert in this
area so Steven Avery is with Kathleen
Zellner and I would say that you know
she’s going to give him the best
shot that he’s going to have a you know
exoneration if it’s meant to be I will
just sum up with a couple things she you
look at how many awards and the
recognition she’s gotten it’s a long
list it makes you feel like shit about
yourself it makes me feel very under
accomplished
she’s the only recognized trial attorney
to win five multi-million dollar jury
trials in under one year if that’s
correct one year and she was kind of
flaws a about it like I saw something
that she was kind of like well everyone
was ready to go to trial I kind of just
had to do it and that’s how it happened
she’s been named top ten attorneys one
of America’s greatest lawyers top
trial lawyers Person of the Year in
by Chicago lawyer magazine most
influential women in the United States
and the list goes on and on Kathleen
Zellner is a rock star and I hear that
she is a lovely person as well Emily
Nestor met her in an airport did you
know that no I didn’t are you kidding
can you imagine being a true-crime
podcaster and seeing Kathleen Zellner I
mean I don’t want to say this like this
but I would die I mean my heart would
stop I don’t think I could contain the
excitement but um I mean in the end so
usually we get to the end we do like our
opinion our opinion here is like I’m
sure she’ll Kathleen Zellner is
inspirational to me she gives me hope
that justice is possible but even so
it’s it’s so difficult and I think
zelner has got a real tenacity I mean
she’s really special and I really hope
that her work inspires other young
eternities to trailblaze with her and
Kathleen if you are listening please
call us if you ever come to New York
we’d love to treat you to dinner please
make our dreams come true Kathleen thank
you so much for listening and I hope you
enjoyed the episode we’ll see you next
time thanks Amy Thank You Megan
women in crime is written and hosted by
Megan sax and Amy schlossberg our
producer and editor is James Varga our
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sources for today’s episode include an
article by Esquire magazine a Chicago
Tribune article in Newsweek article the
dream killer documentary and a Los
Angeles Times article