Episode Transcript
The below text transcription was is intended for audience reference and search purposes. Because it is generated automatically by computer, please forgive mis-translations, spelling and the lack of really any structured grammar.
On the evening of April th Joanne
Parks put her three children to sleep
and went to bed she woke up around
midnight to the sound of her children
screaming and to a home engulfed in
flames although the fire was initially
ruled accidental Joanne was later
convicted for arson and murder and
remains in prison even though many doubt
the accuracy of her conviction
This is episode the Joanne Parks story
[Music]
Hey Amy it’s great to see you today
hey Megan how you doing well I’m excited
to be here with you and also excited
that we have new patrons so who do we
have today Megan okay first leading us
off we have amber Hammond from Tennessee
Thank You amber
Thank You amber and amber actually has a
question for us so great what is your
favorite case you have covered and why
is it your favorite I think I think
we’ve definitely discussed some of our
cases before but I have a lot of
favorites it’s always hard I think I’ve
said the Melanie McGuire case is
obviously the one that sticks with me
but recently we did an episode on racing
crime and I just have to say I felt
really really proud of that work and I
just I loved that one and I think that
might be my favorite episode that we’ve
covered you Amy well I was going to say
race and crime episode as well but since
you said it first
I also really am drawn to the Lavina
case because I think there are so many
questions and it’s not as simple as not
that any case is simple but there’s not
an outcome that anyone can live with
right now
justice has not been served in that case
so I think that’s a case that I really
think about often I really like and you
know I hope we can revisit it when there
are some updates in that case that’s
great right we also have Amy from
Everett Pennsylvania hey Amy thank you
love your name ha ha and Amy had a
question so Amy said what are your
thoughts on getting people’s records
expunged if they haven’t committed a
felony in years or longer and how
difficult is that process so this
question comes after she listened to our
erasing crime in America episode I
believe that makes sense and before I
talk about that I just want to point out
that even individuals who are wrongfully
convicted and exonerated do not have
their records automatically expunged
right so I think first we need to first
we need to acknowledge that I did some
research in this area and in my
particular study we found that almost
% of exoneree still had evidence of
the wrongful conviction on their record
so I think at the very least we could do
to people that we wrongfully convict is
automatically expunged and currently
there are some states that do it but
there are more sales that are not doing
it I of course believe that people’s
records should be expunged and I don’t
think they need to wait years or
longer I think if somebody has a clean
record after three years maybe five
years for extremely violent offenses and
I think we can expend I think then we
can expunge their record what do you
think Megan I am in favor of expungement
but not a blanket yeah I think there are
cases for which expungement is not
probably appropriate and there should be
long periods of time but I do think
mostly expungement would only help
alleviate some of these barriers that we
create for people to successfully
reenter society yep going back to those
collateral consequences right exactly
and the second part of the question was
talking about what are the options for
people who have a felony record and it’s
really tricky because now that we can
get everything we need just by a click
of a button on the Internet
even if you get your record sealed or
expunged and say the court system or the
criminal justice system somebody can
still google you so a lot of former
inmates have issues because they
actually have to work with someone who
does website or I guess I guess I could
say website optimization James probably
knows about this but basically it’s
paying someone to make the search
results if you google their name though
the articles that mention the original
crime in which they were later
exonerated for those would come in like
you know page or of the search
results instead of page or but
that’s very expensive and as we know
most people who are reentering society
whether innocent or not simply do not
have the resources to do something like
that right um you could of course also
petition the court for an expungement
but I know especially with people who
are wrongfully convicted they don’t have
the money or the interest to really go
back into the court system after they
have finally been exonerated yeah you
can’t blame them for that thank you for
the question
Amy from Everett Pennsylvania and thanks
to our Amy for the answer yes thank you
we also have Brittney Dee from San Diego
and Meghan you know what Brittney is
doing Brittney is a Navy veteran current
me studying anthropology and American
Indian studies and she hopes to become a
forensic anthropologist this is like one
of my favorite other careers when people
asked just so you know I’ve actually had
a friends again apologize come in and
speak to classes and I was so in awe of
the work I think that is so cool
good luck Brittany yeah that’s awesome
Brittany good job Emily from Boston also
wrote us and we’re giving her a
shout-out thank you so much for
listening but also a shout-out to her
fiance Liam who also listens to women in
crime with her Emily you got yourself a
good man there I have to agree thank you
to Emily and to her awesome fiance Liam
and Anais who else do we have we have
Fabiola from Portland Oregon I’ve always
wanted to go to Portland and it’s still
on my list so hopefully I’ll see you out
there at some point Fabiola and finally
we have Samantha from Tucson Arizona and
Samantha actually sent us a note about
the Jodi arias case oh this is very
timely that she asks about Jodi arias
because this coming Thursday June th
p.m. eastern time we will be speaking
with Jillian from one of our favorite
podcasts Kourt junkie oh I can’t wait I
am really really excited about this
we’ll be talking with Jillian from Kourt
junkies about Jodi arias as some of you
might know there have been some updates
in Jodi’s case lately and some
interesting things have happened with
both the prosecutor and one of her
former defense lawyers on this episode
we will give you the updates and we will
also take you a little bit behind the
scenes into our assessment of Jodi arias
from a criminologist point of view
looking forward to that I’m really
excited about this and Jillian will be
do covering a lot of the trial points as
well so this will be a great
well-rounded episode and we’re going to
allow some time for Q&A as well be sure
to catch us there great excited to jump
into today’s case so do you know
anything about Joanne Parks I really
don’t I have to say you’ve picked some
cases you pick some stumpers for me I
don’t know if that’s a word but you
stumped me I’m always surprised when I
research some of these cases and they’re
so shocking and I realize how little
information is out there there’s no
shortage of cases well that’s that’s for
while Joanne was a stay-at-home mom and
by many accounts she really loved being
a mom and did the best she could the
reason I say did the best she could is
they were a bit strapped for cash and
we’ll talk about that a little more in
just a moment but Joanne at the time of
the fire she was just years old she
lived with her husband Ronald who was
years old and her three children so she
had two daughters Roane who was
months old Jessica who was three years
old and Ronald who they actually called
Ronny he was the oldest at just four
years old okay so Joanne and Ronald were
married for six years so do the math she
got married very young she had a tough
upbringing she was adopted very young
and reportedly she had a very hard time
fitting in apparently her stepdad didn’t
seem to care for her and made her feel
unwanted I’m she was also the victim of
sexual assault as a teenager by an adult
member of her church so as a result of
that assault as a teenager she actually
got pregnant and she was forced to give
up the child and soon after her child
was placed with a foster family and then
soon after that her child died Oh
so a lot of trauma happening very early
on for Joanne again she met Ronald when
she was pretty young reportedly he
became abusive shortly after they met
remember they have about a -year
difference between the two of them she
was quite young right was maybe when
they got married so she stayed with him
although he was abusive as unfortunately
we hear often um he reportedly was both
physically and verbally abusive I also
just want to mention that I said that
they had got married young they also got
married after only knowing each other
for one week whoa yeah and that’s right
yeah and Ronald was previously married
and had an year-old son from a prior
marriage so his son was about the age of
his new wife right so the families they
could be friends yeah so the family
lived in the Bell City section of LA
they actually lived in a converted two
car garage it was less than five hundred
and thirty square feet there was three
bedrooms the two young girls shared a
bedroom Ronny the older son had his own
room there was a kitchen a living room a
bathroom and although this seems like a
guess a small living space
it actually come from a shelter before
that so they were actually really happy
they were living on their own and it was
a good time for them they had only moved
in to this new home a week prior to the
fire
some say the house was in disarray it
was very small and messy but again they
just moved and they also have three kids
and square feet like let’s not judge
that right there right did her husband
work her husband did work actually the
night of the fire her husband was
working he worked at a local packaging
plant okay like an ice cream an ice
cream packaging plant okay so that
actually brings me to the night of the
fire April th jo-ann as mentioned
in the intro
she put her three children to sleep and
she went to bed jo-ann says she woke up
around midnight she first heard her
children screaming and then she smelled
smoke a fire had erupted in the home and
it was so intense that she says she
could not get into her children’s
bedroom so the way the home was set up
it’s kind of like an l-shape and she
will on the opposite end of where her
children’s rooms were okay she claims
that she tried to go to them but there
was a wall of flames in between the fire
was actually blocking the hallway
between her room and her children’s room
but Joann had a door in her room a door
that led to the outside so Joann ran
outside the door to a neighbor’s house
to call the police her neighbor saw what
was going on and tried to enter the home
because the neighbor was so that there
were three children in the home so of
course as anyone would write you want to
get those children out unfortunately the
neighbor quickly left the home and
started coughing because the house was
so engulfed in flames by then at this
point reportedly Joann tried to re-enter
the burning home but she was held back
by her neighbors the fire department of
course quickly were on the scene they
told Joann everything’s okay the kids
are okay they took her down to the
police station tragically no one was
able to save the children at this point
she had no idea that her children were
in fact deceased Ronald had met her at
the police station the police officers
had told Ronald and Ronald had relayed
the news to jo-ann the two young girls
were found in one bedroom jessica was in
her bed Roane was in her crib and the
older boy was found in the closet in his
room they actually couldn’t find the
older boy for awhile
and they searched the neighborhood
people thought oh maybe he escaped maybe
he got scared so there was a lot of hope
that young Ronnie was alive but
eventually they found him crouched down
in the corner of his closet hurry on him
so the night of the fire it was assumed
that it was accidental right there was
no reason to think anything else
although it was accidental of course
they were still gathering evidence just
to try to understand the origin of the
fire why did this happen at first they
believed that there was a wire in the
living room that started the fire so
they were looking at burn patterns to
try to understand and that it led them
to this area in the living room nothing
at this point suggested that the fire
was intentionally started so shortly
after the fire joanne and robert moved
to st. louis to be near robert’s ailing
father jo-ann had been working as a
caretaker at a Christian Science nursing
home and administrators at the home said
that the pair were quiet they kept to
themselves and neither of them ever
talked about the fire or the death of
their children so Robert stood by her he
did not blame her at all for the loss of
their children okay actually the police
initially looked at him because he had
an electrician background but they
quickly ruled him out because of his
alibi yep exactly and because I guess
they were when they looked at the wire
it didn’t look like it was tampered with
no no red flags there so I was also
thinking you’re saying it was a
converted garage so I was like maybe it
wasn’t converted properly and maybe
there were some wiring issues yeah so
hold hold that thought we’ll definitely
talk about what could have happened here
okay
so what led to the change of heart well
investigators became suspicious after
they received a telephone call from one
of parks friends and former neighbors so
apparently many people disliked Joanne
there was one person in particular that
was a neighbor named Kathy dodge and
Kathy dodge called the police and she
wanted to let them know that Parkes was
not a good mother
um the children were often not clean she
once saw one of the children eat dog
food off the floor she’s also said that
she had seen Joanne give the children
large doses of cough medicine to sleep
basically was saying that the children
were victims of child abuse
around this time they were also informed
that a year before that fire the family
was actually burned out of a rental
house in Lynwood because remember I said
they were living in a shelter oh right
so there was actually a fire in their
home prior to when they lived in the
shelter
that’s an interesting coincidence the
first fire was definitely accidental
there was no doubt about that but what
Cathy dodge tells the police is that
Parkes
commented during that fire if Ron had
come home five minutes later Jessica
would be dead and we would be rich so
now it’s salacious information yes now
we have a character assassination
happening right so we have a neighbor
saying she was a bad mother and now we
have this neighbor saying and she also
made this you know comment this ominous
comment last time there was a fire and
so now the police are thinking okay so
if the first fire was an accident
maybe that’s true but maybe Joanne
learns how to start an electrical fire
gave her the idea exactly so what
happens this is when the bias starts the
investigators are now looking for
evidence to fit their new theory this is
problematic we had the theory that it
was accidental so all the evidence was
fitting into that theory that it’s
accidental now we think it’s arson how
can we look at the evidence than out fit
our new theory
[Music]
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places of origin and this became a huge
focus now why does this matter because
of a fire is accidental you would not
see two places of origin okay got it
this was based on burn patterns in other
words they were looking at the depth of
the char and the amount of damage
however they ignore the idea of
flashover and ventilation effects so
basically what I mean by that is when
you have a fire it can you know the
ventilation in the room can call
changes in burn patterns that can create
an illusion of a second place of origin
oh so in other words it appeared that
there were two places of origin but it
could in fact just be that it was
flashover but we’re gonna talk a lot
more about flashover in a moment okay
another thing they were started to focus
on is remember I said the younger son
was found in his closet but they thought
he was hiding at first that fit the
theory this was accidental and he was
hiding in the closet now that they think
it’s arson they went back to interpret
the situation differently now they
noticed that looking at the char
patterns the burn patterns on the ground
it appeared as if something was in front
of the closet so now they start thinking
Oh Joanne did this and she barricaded
him in the closet because he was the
eldest and he could have caught it
gotten out or Rattler who knows maybe
she had something towards that one who
knows but basically what they did is
they looked through all the remnants
after the fire and it was almost like a
puzzle like what could have fit in this
space and they concluded like oh it must
have been the hamper so their new
narrative is that she put him in the
closet and shut the closet and put the
hamper in front of it although they as
we’ll talk about later that was you know
that was that theory was debunked later
on now they also went back to that wire
remember that wire they were talking
about how there was an electrical
malfunction they go back to look at the
wire and now all the sudden they notice
oh it looks like it has cuts in it and
it was wrapped in curtain so this was
never reported the first time around and
now they’re saying somebody tried to cut
the wire and somebody wrapped the wire
in curtain to ignite a fire they’re
taking all this everything they
initially saw and they’re changing it to
now fit this new theory of arson they
also of course start digging into
Joanne’s reaction you know we hear this
all the time should’ accent enough but
remember she was also told that the kids
were okay but regardless you can’t judge
this we talk about this all the time how
can you really judge the way someone
reacts people could be in shock and you
can’t it’s almost never a good indicator
at all of someone’s in a sense or guilt
to judge their emotional or lack thereof
reaction exactly and then of course
there were some other neighbors the
neighbors start coming out of the
woodwork now one neighbor said oh well
she had no smoke or fire damage to her
another neighbor
said you know she was hysterical another
neighbor said she wasn’t hysterical it’s
very hard to judge the credibility and
the reliability of these types of
witnesses we know that regardless
two-and-a-half years after the fire on
October rd Joann was arrested at
her job and pled not guilty to three
counts of murder with a special
circumstance of arson this makes her
eligible for the death penalty if
convicted at the time Wow because the
special circumstance exactly okay
aggravating factor right of arson so she
was held without bail as you would
expect yeah so the trial begins in
and it was a capital murder trial this
is a big deal the prosecution argued
that Joanne had intentionally set fire
to her own house they focused a lot on
her character again they pointed out
that the neighbor tried to rescue the
children and that neighbor smelled her
smoked and cost for several days however
Joanne didn’t smell a smoke and she
didn’t have a coffee
Joanne did not seem to have any physical
issues caused by smoke inhalation so
they’re trying to say that that
implicates her
one neighbor testified that Joanne
seemed dazed on the night of the fire
well why wouldn’t you be dating that’s
not really an indicted other witnesses
testified that you know again that she
was hysterical some said she wasn’t
either way a lot of people were trying
to destroy her character and the
prosecutor said that this was one of the
most evil defendants in LA’s history so
they were really digging in on her now
are they d are you they using to
demonize her bad mother
murder okay absolutely absolutely
expert testimony presented by the
prosecution again indicated that there
had been two fires that had been set
intentionally again one in the living
room as we talked about and there was
this other one in the southeast bedroom
experts ruled out an electrical source
for the fire which again that’s what
they said it initially was okay and also
Ronald’s Joanne’s husband did testify
that he was not aware of any electrical
issues in the home but I don’t think
that’s neither here nor there was he
still at this point standing by her he
was okay in addition to the testimony
about the fires origin a firefighter
testified that he found that unburned
pattern in
of the clothes closet door where irani
was found and the firefighter testified
that this indicated that something had
been placed in front of the closet to
keep it from swinging open and then they
had two investigators who both agreed
that it was the laundry hamper that had
been placed in front of the closet door
because it matched the shape so you have
a lot of people getting on the stand
here focusing on these areas which all
sound by the way so kind of subjective
to me yep I agree so far yep the experts
opinion that Joanne was the perp also
rested in large part on their mapping of
the fires path so there was a focus on
what we talked about this idea of
flashover basically I’m not a fire
person but the way I understand it is
when certain organic materials are
heated they undergo this type of thermal
decomposition and release flammable
gases okay so if that occurs every
flammable surface in the room that’s not
already burning can ignite in rapid
succession oh I say okay flashover often
makes domestic fires impossible to make
sense of because everything gets ignited
okay that makes sense to me flashover
did in fact occur in the Parkes home but
investigators said that the burn scape
implicated the mother when in fact
there’s no way to say that what it
really comes down to is they were saying
we can’t find a cause so it must be
arson and unfortunately they had like I
said they had a lot of experts getting
on that stand testifying to this what
about the neighbor who first came
forward did they find it was there any
reason that you could find other than
just being a good citizen that she did
she have a grudge or didn’t like her
like because there a reason why she came
forward with this information yeah they
had some sort of she didn’t she disliked
Joanne for some reason oh that’s right
yeah that okay yeah it’s hard to know
exactly because a lot of that’s hearsay
right did Joanne testify Joanne did not
testify I’m not going to spend too much
time on the defense because I want to
spend more time on the on what happens
during appeals but basically the defense
their evidence really did demonstrate
that the fire could have actually been
caused by an electrical malfunction such
as a defective TV so that the TV that
they had was known for its tendency to
start fires okay and there were also
other old faulty appliances in that home
as we talked about they were they were
having financial struggles so it makes
sense to believe it had some old faulty
appliances and
you point out this was a new repurposed
home what used to be a garage there’s
reason to believe maybe the electric
wasn’t done up to code after two days of
deliberation February Parkes was
convicted of three counts of first
degree murder and sentenced to life
without the possibility of parole
in other words although it was death
eligible she did not get the death
penalty but she has been in prison for
what are we talking years if I’m
doing my math correct so she’s still in
prison she is sorry spoiler alert all
right let’s talk about the appeals this
is where things get a little confusing
so bear with me ok ok ok so as we know
there is a very high standard and
appeals are rarely successful so her
first appeal was filed in to the
California appellate court and this was
based on insufficient evidence and jury
misconduct jury misconduct do you ask I
I was going to apparently the jury was
released for days during a holiday in
the middle of I guess their
deliberations or in the middle of the
trial it was really hard to find
information on this but regardless her
sentence was affirmed in but what
misconduct are they saying that they
were exposed then to inflammatory like
media or they talked about it possible
they’re saying them being released for
that long is just ok leaving too many
possibilities open ok she also was not
successful when she appealed to the
California Supreme Court let’s talk
about fire science though because fire
science has dramatically changed since
and this is gonna come into play
when we talk about where her case is
currently okay so mostly it was just
on-the-job training during the time of
Joanne’s case in other words it wasn’t
really a specific training or a specific
certification to be an arson
investigator okay in the National
Fire Protection Association they
actually did publish guidelines and they
started introducing scientific methods
for investigating arson cases and at
this time people started recognizing
that there were widely believed myths
that surrounded fire science cases so we
see in the early s which right around
the time where Joanne was convicted
people are just starting to see maybe
this isn’t such a strong sign
so I don’t know if you know the name
John Lentini but he is the most well
known fire scientist and he is the one
who led the way for a lot of reforms he
actually now works at the forensic fire
analysis Institute and the reason why I
bring him up is because he led an arson
review panel in that was put
together to review the evidence reports
and testimony in the park’s case so you
have John Lentini again who is you know
the leader of he’s like the Barry Scheck
of fire sighs exactly so he had this
whole panel gets put together him in the
panel conclude that the fire in parks
home was not in arson they found that
forensic evidence used during the
original investigation was invalid and
that the fire investigators who analyzed
the case simply did not have a proper
understanding of really the behavior of
fires at that time I’m sure they
increase the educational standards going
forward as well and you know they talk
about how this new evidence shows that
the investigators in Joanne’s case
really based their investigation on what
are now debunked arson myths so in other
words this conviction is tainted because
we didn’t know then what we know now it
was also riddled with bias and
unscientific methods the panel’s report
also documents how the theories of the
police investigators such as the theory
that the fire had multiple points of
origin was incorrect oh they actually
concluded that the fire spread from a
single origin in the layer room and then
quote-unquote jumped into the children’s
bedroom it only appeared to the
untrained eye that there were two points
of origin in addition the autopsy of the
victims showed that the children had
fatally high carbon monoxide levels in
their lungs which means what it means
that had there been a fire in the
bedroom meaning if there had been two
points of origin the children would not
have survived long enough for carbon
monoxide to accumulate got it okay so
this aspect of carbon monoxide poisoning
was not understood at the time of parks
trial and most research about carbon
monoxide production during fire and its
effect on victims didn’t occur until
after the parks trial the panel also
looked at the fire patterns on the
closet door again that closet door where
johnny was found contrary to the
conclusions of the initial investigators
this panel determined that the door was
actually not even closed at the time of
the fire
and definitely not locked they suggest
that the child likely took refuge from
the fire in the closet he was scared he
was you know he was trying to protect
himself that’s exactly what I would have
thought yeah ultimately the panel
concluded that by modern standards
none of this evidence would withstand in
a courtroom today so you know basically
the report concludes that the
investigators and the jury were misled
by bad science they even say possibly by
no science at all
well it sounds unscientific the original
sigh I’m sorry the original findings to
me don’t sound backed by science was
this report prepared for one of her
appeals so I was trying to find the
purpose of this report because you would
think that this report would be used as
a jumping off point for Appeals and I
think that it is being used so right now
I’m jumping ahead a little bit but right
now the California Innocence Project has
Jo Ann’s case off and they’re relying
heavily on the Lentini report among lots
of other areas one other thing I want to
point out there is also a conclusion in
that report that says that the type of
television set that parks owned had been
linked to more than fires remember I
said at the time of the trial the
defense said it was probably the TV but
they had trouble proving it because they
couldn’t really say what exact make a
model it was they were just kind of
guessing okay
and some say this was probably one of
the bigger parts of the trial that the
conviction might not have happened if
they could have just showed that it was
likely the TV that had this electrical
issue going back to the Innocence
Project Joanne had first reached out to
the Innocence Project for help in
but her case was rejected because there
was not a firm understanding of the fire
science remember the Lentini report
didn’t come out until so after the
Lentini report the Innocence Project
started paying more attention to arson
science as a quote-unquote junk science
right
in the California Innocence Project
took on Joanne’s case and they had an
evidentiary hearing in during this
hearing they called new fire experts to
talk about these new techniques
however the prosecution witnesses
concluded that they still believed it
was arson and the judge really just
ruled that it was a battle of the
experts you know we see this a lot of
times that you all the time because the
prosecution’s expert is saying no it
could still be arson the defense has all
these new experts saying it’s not arson
at the end of the day the judge is
saying all right well it’s a battle of
you know which is unfortunate because
sometimes it is about all the experts
but this seems like a case where so much
more evolved about science and treating
it like a science yeah that this is not
necessarily your traditional battle of
the expert yeah especially when you have
Lentini who is like the face of arson
science backing this so they didn’t
grant they did not grant a new trial and
then a judge in the Los Angeles Superior
Court denied a habeas corpus petition in
November this decision is currently
being appealed basically they were
asking for a new trial based on error of
false scientific evidence there’s a
little more because that’s November
so yes that decision is being appealed
but there’s also a petition that’s
asking the governor in California to
grant a commutation and give her a
chance before the parole board so
something called the California you
ever heard of this I know where he going
well okay so basic the California
Innocence Project is focused on these
twelve cases of what they believe are
wrongful conviction and they do a lot of
work around these cases one thing they
do three members of the Innocence
Project in California walked six hundred
miles from San Diego to Sacramento to
try to draw attention to these inmates
for whom they believe there is really
powerful evidence of their innocence I
also read somewhere that the Innocence
Project is raising money to try and
recreate the parks home in a laboratory
so they could recreate the fire Wow
because this could be that quote-unquote
new evidence that was not available at
the time during the trial so the idea is
to show whether the prosecution’s
scenario is even physically possible
alright I think that’s I mean if you if
they can raise the money I think that’s
fantastic it reminds we have what like
Kathleen Zellner did with on you know
making of a murderer
to which she recreated she bought a car
that was similar to the victim’s car and
tried to recreate it if you could afford
it exactly the problem is it’s not cheap
and they’re estimating it’s over a
hundred thousand dollars and we know the
the Innocence Project does not have
money like that right but we know that
could be grounds for appeal so there’s
some fundraising efforts surrounding
that unfortunately Joanne’s not in
contact with her family she’s no longer
with Ronald but she does have some
supporters including the defense fire
investigator and his family they so
strongly believed in Joanne’s evidence
at the time of the trial that they
became one of her strongest advocates
she also has a few supporters who are
former inmates who are now on parole and
as I mentioned the California Innocence
Project they’re standing behind her and
they’re really rallying really for
justice for Joanne so something that our
listeners could do actually is ask
California governor Gavin Newsom to
grant Joanne parks clemency right we can
also support the California Innocence
Project if you don’t have the money to
support you can also just share the
story sharing the story on social media
helps you know I want to end by just
saying that people might not realize
this but a quarter of all exonerations
are due to bad forensic science so
that’s the second leading cause of
wrongful convictions and what’s the
first so everyone knows eyewitness
identification or eyewitness errors okay
when we talk about bad forensic science
of course that runs the gamut arson is
just one part of that but we do know
that there have been over
exonerations in the area of arson
science already so this area is
definitely picking up steam as we’re
learning more and more actually there’s
a case christine bunch have you ever
heard of this case no her case was very
similar to Joanne’s she was convicted of
killing her son and arson and she was
exonerated when they showed that the
burn patterns initially they said the
burn pattern showed that an accelerant
was used in the fire but based on new
science they were able to debunk that
and she had been exonerated so it does
you know I guess give hope but a lot of
these arson cases if there is a question
of an accelerant we see it those cases
are the ones that are being overturned
more in other words if Joanne’s case if
there was a question of an accelerant
she would be in better shape that’s all
I have Megan I wonder what your thoughts
are well first of all I have a question
do you think that these arson cases have
gained a lot of momentum since they
executed do you remember the execution
of Cameron Todd Willingham
yeah that was I think I’m not sure
but you know he was executed and there
was real substantial questions
I mean his is thought of as a lot of
people believe that he was wrongfully
executed so do you think that the
innocence projects are taking on more
cases in light of his execution I think
it’s probably his execution along with
all of this new science that is now
coming out okay those two together I’m
happy to see that it’s getting more
attention but it’s it’s tricky because
not like DNA like a lot of these
exonerations if DNA is found and then
they retest it and it matches someone
else right that’s a slam dunk these
cases are not so black and white but
even DNA cases are hard and they take
time and they’re the first ones in line
you know this it sounds like almost
arson cases are next in line yeah it
sounds to me like she was condemned
almost for being like you know the
through the gender lens bad mother
equals murderers at least you know she
was condemned for that reason without
knowing without knowing everything here
though based on what you told me I mean
it sounds like there was substantial at
least reasonable doubt as to whether or
not she was involved and yeah can you
imagine mourning the loss of your three
children and also being convicted of
their murder it’s just incomprehensible
no it’s it’s not so again can you remind
people what they can do I mean like you
said you can share a story but there is
there a petition also you said a mirror
yeah so if you go to the California
Innocence Project website you should be
able to find a link that will bring you
to some language if you want to write to
you know the California governor but
honestly in today’s day and age even
tweeting at the governor or you know you
know on social media just showing
support again the governor has the power
to grant Joanne Parks clemency I know I
know of a case now where someone is
actually petitioning for clemency so
that it is rare it’s rare but that is
the power of the governor so anyone if
you want to reach out or maybe if you
are governor Newsom listening to this
may be ill governor Newsom we hope
you’re a fan we hope you’re listening
justice for Joanne justice for Joanne
heíd listeners we have an update for you
normally we do not have an update this
quickly after recording an episode but
we actually recorded this episode back
in March I recall that because it was
the first time we recorded separately
during quarantine you remember that
Megan I remember I was nervous it’s very
sad to be a part but anyway just two
weeks later Joanne Parks was granted
clemency I did not know this yeah I’m
curious to hear the process and why this
wasn’t I guess more newsworthy because I
didn’t see it um to tell you the truth I
didn’t hear about it as much as I
thought I would have either Gavin Newsom
who is the governor in California
on March th he pardoned five people
who already served their time and he
commuted the sentence of twenty-one
state inmates fun fact other than Joanne
there were three other Innocence Project
clients too who are going to be released
immediately so a big congrats to the
California Innocence Project that is
really huge for them they’ve been doing
so much work for these clients so that
ngratulations that’s awesome let’s take
a moment and talk about what this
actually means for Joanne because
unfortunately it does not actually
guarantee her release if you recall
Joanne was tried in California and the
California Constitution gives the
governor the authority to grant clemency
now clemency can be in the form of a
pardon or a commutation so what’s the
difference here while a commutation is
really just the substitution of a lesser
penalty after the conviction of a crime
is that what happened with since Santoya
Brown yes
so what’s it’s interesting because
Cynthia’s case was a bit different and I
want to highlight the difference in just
a moment okay so the penalty when we
have a commutation the penalty can
either be lessened in severity which
means someone who was sentenced to death
can be commuted to maybe say life
without parole or in duration when
somebody say was mandated ten years as
reduce a mandate at eight years or it
could be some form of both I want to
point out though that a clemency does
not necessarily forgive or minimize the
harm caused by the crime and it does not
erase the conviction and most
importantly it does not prove innocence
it recognizes that a person has perhaps
been rehabilitated in some way so we can
incentivize people to maybe take
accountability or work towards
rehabilitation while incarcerated
as we talked about earlier in the
episode Joanne was really a model inmate
she has a strong record of education
employment counseling and she even did
some work with disabled inmates so
really quick I just wanted to talk about
how this is different than a part in a
part in essentially is forgiving an
individual a pardon is something you
would rather have if you’re in this
situation right because the pardon can
prevent the unjust collateral
consequences of a conviction we talked
about collateral consequences quite a
bit in our race and crime episode but
this is talking about you know barriers
to employment on the restoration of
civil rights such as voting a pardon
does not expunge or erase a conviction
however it does quote-unquote forgive a
person so the commutation allows her to
go before the board of Perl for a
hearing and ultimately the Perl
Commissioner is going to determine
whether she is suitable for release so
you brought up this entire Brown case if
you recall it’s a bit different so every
state does things a bit differently in
procedures in the criminal justice
system so in Tennessee where Santoya
Brown’s case was the governor asked for
the recommendation of the parole board
before making the final call on clemency
understand how yeah so in California
it’s a bit reversed so the governor
granted clemency but now it’s up to the
parole board to actually decide really
making the final call on whether or not
she will be granted clemency and when
does she go in front of them no that’s a
great question because unfortunately
like all other legal proceedings parole
hearings are on hold right now why is
that Oh cuz of coronavirus yep so
because of the pandemic right now it’s
really unclear when Joanne is actually
going to go before the board okay I see
so she does have and you know she has
the right to and they will hear her case
but it’s just temporarily on hold right
now and that makes sense why it wasn’t
such a headliner in the news as well
exactly
but meanwhile her attorney who is the
California Innocence Project attorney
Raquel Cohen she says she will continue
pushing for the case to overturn parks
conviction before the California Supreme
Court so she’s not
it’s her works not done just because
Joanne was granted clemency
she’s still going to fight regardless of
their parole board’s decision in the
case she will continue pushing forward
for completely overturning that
conviction good for her thank you so
much for the update Amy I’m really glad
that we were able to get this into the
episode because it’s a really important
development and I’m glad that all the
listeners will be able to hear about
this thank you so much for listening
today we’ll catch everyone next time on
women in crime thank you
women in crime is written and hosted by
Meghan Saxon amy Schlossberg our
producer and editor is James Varga our
music is composed by desert media
[MUSIC]
sources for today’s episode includes the
book burned by Edie Humes NPR the
California Innocence Project courtroom
confidential podcast and the LA Times