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[00:00:00] Meghan Sacks: This podcast contains sensitive topics and discussions. Listener discretion is advised, a surprising barrage of online hate drives a young teenage girl to do the unthinkable. This is the Megan Meyer story.
[00:00:37] And before we get into today’s case, we just wanna let the audience know that today’s episode will contain discussions of suicide. So extra listener discretion is advised. Hi, Amy. Hey Megan. How are you today? I’m good. I am taking up gardening because James is making me, just so you know, he built us a garden in the backyard.
[00:00:57] He also finished building my pond, so I have [00:01:00] frogs. Hi. Fish and all other fun stuff. All the stuff that I was really looking forward to in a backyard. So I’m pretty happy. What are you growing? We are gonna, well, you know, we’ll be growing things in layers, but I think we’re starting with some cucumbers, uh, lettuce, uh, cantaloupe, so kind of fun stuff to make salads with.
[00:01:18] And then cantaloupe is one of the few fruits I like. So no herbs. James has some herbs, but you know, he’s really like the, he’s really in, in charge here mostly because I. Would never have taken the initiative to do it, but hopefully I’ll figure out my green
[00:01:30] Amy Shlosberg: thumb. Megan, I’m into gardening now too, so we’ll have to compare
[00:01:34] Meghan Sacks: notes.
[00:01:35] I know you used to bring me vegetables. Mm-hmm. Made me so happy. Yes. From your garden. Thank you. Yes. I’ll bring you some now too. Today’s case, Amy is one that you actually mentioned to me in passing, but I remembered it and it stuck with me as they sometimes do. So, you know, I began doing the research and I decided that I really wanted to cover this case because there are a number of significant issues that we should, you know, bring out of this.
[00:01:59] I don’t [00:02:00] wanna spoil the discussion though, so that’s why I’m not saying too much, keeping it a little vague. I’m gonna leave it at that for now and introduce everyone to the subject of today’s episode, Megan Meyer. Megan Meyer was born on November 6th, 1992. To parents Ron and Tina Meyer. Known as Tina in O’Fallon, Missouri, and she had one younger sister, Allison.
[00:02:23] Megan had many interests including music, a love for animals, especially her own chihuahua, don’t you? You love Chihuahuas. That’s right. Love chihuahuas. Okay, so Megan loved animals, her own chihuahua. She loved boating among other things, but despite her many interests, Megan had a hard time in school. So from a young age, Megan was overweight, which caused her to have low self-esteem.
[00:02:47] She was also diagnosed with a d, d and depression, and she saw a therapist Because of several of these, you know, issues, Megan found herself as kind of an outcast in elementary school. She was often [00:03:00] bullied for her weight and aspects of her a d. D made it feel hard for her to fit in. So she also found difficulty overcoming this kind of outcast label, and she found it challenging to make friends.
[00:03:12] She did have one friend though, who was a neighbor. This was Sarah Drew, and Sarah lived on her block, and Sarah also suffered from bullying at school. So I guess they kind of found this shared bond. But as can be the case with some elementary school friendships, as much as Megan and Sarah hung out together, they also fought a lot.
[00:03:29] So their friendships swung from them being. Besties to being at each other’s throats as reported. And we can speculate that maybe this friendship was tumultuous because the two were both struggling in different ways. So they might have been each other’s outlets, but you know, they both had their own frustrations.
[00:03:46] So, needless to say, Amy Elementary school was not a good time for Megan. However, she was starting a new school for her middle grade years, and she really hoped to have a fresh start. You know, she was really hopeful that she would make friends and that she wouldn’t be on the [00:04:00] fringe, kind of, so to speak.
[00:04:01] But unfortunately the same pattern emerged at her middle school. Megan became an instant target for bullying, mostly from students who commented on her weight. So always makes me think how difficult it is to be in school at this age. Mm-hmm. It’s just, it’s so challenging on its own. And then to have this added, oh, this added pressure, and unfortunately, Megan’s depression deepened.
[00:04:24] And she begged her parents to homeschool her so she wouldn’t have to deal with the bullies anymore. And while her parents didn’t think that homeschooling was the right choice, they did get her transferred to a different school, and this school was finally a good fit for her. Megan was really thriving in this environment.
[00:04:40] She started to make friends and she started to join sports. And become involved. But her newfound happiness put a rift between her and her childhood friend Sarah, because Megan kind of stopped hanging out with Sarah. She was moving on, and I think it’s quite normal for kids to outgrow their original friendships as they move up in school.
[00:04:59] I [00:05:00] don’t know how you feel about that, but relationships change. Elementary school friendships don’t always last forever. It’s not exactly abnormal, but I’m sure it was very hurtful to Sarah. Mm-hmm. But, Megan didn’t seem to be so upset about her waning friendship with Sarah, but before their friendship totally disintegrated, Megan and Sarah had created a secret webpage on the social media platform.
[00:05:22] MySpace. I know we’ve discussed this before, but did you use MySpace?
[00:05:27] Amy Shlosberg: Of course. I use MySpace and that’s where me and Alan reconnected. You
[00:05:31] Meghan Sacks: don’t know that. I always know that you re reconnected online, but I ne I never remember that it’s MySpace. I think the reason I don’t remember is because I never used MySpace.
[00:05:39] Really? Which probably doesn’t shock you because you know how I can’t do anything social media wise, so I guess that’s not a surprise. Um, nope. Before Facebook became, you know, the premier social media platform, MySpace was really popular from around, I think it was like 2006 to 2010, and Megan and Sarah used their secret MySpace page to chat with other [00:06:00] people.
[00:06:00] However, Megan’s mom, Tina found out about the page and forced her to shut, shut it down. Social media was incredibly new in 2006, and parents were very concerned about the types of people and possible predators that their children might encounter if registered on this type of website. I, I don’t think now is any different.
[00:06:17] I think the concern is probably even more heightened and. Megan’s mom, Tina was no different. She did not think that MySpace was an appropriate place for her daughter to be talking to strangers. But when Megan was entering the eighth grade, she asked her mother again if she could go back on MySpace since she was older, and Tina agreed this time, just as long as Megan would agree that Tina would be monitoring her posts and her friend requests.
[00:06:43] So Tina said, okay, I’m gonna allow you this, but I’m gonna be involved as well, and I’m gonna be keeping track. Mm-hmm. That’s what I would do. I mean, fair enough. I was gonna ask you that at the end, because you’re a parent, so how do you handle these kinds of things? It’s very challenging. Megan was elated, reestablishing herself on [00:07:00] MySpace where she got her first ever friend request.
[00:07:03] And this request was from a boy named Josh Evans. Now, Tina was not thrilled that a random boy was messaging with her daughter, but she reluctantly allowed Megan to talk to Josh again with her supervision from his profile picture. Megan thought that Josh was very cute. He was around her age, so I think he was 14 and he was looking to make new friends since he was moving to Megan’s town.
[00:07:28] So Josh was very complimentary of Megan in their online chats, telling her that she was pretty, and remember none of Megan’s peers had really ever told her that before. So she was naturally incredibly touched by these comments and by the positive attention that she was receiving. Megan and Josh online chatted pretty much after school almost every day, but when Megan asked Josh about talking on the phone, He responded that unfortunately he and his mother did not currently have a landline or a cell phone.
[00:07:58] I
[00:07:59] Amy Shlosberg: have a feeling [00:08:00] that this case is reminiscent of a crossover that we did with Minds of Madness. I’m not gonna give anything away, but am I right?
[00:08:06] Meghan Sacks: There are similar themes. Yes. You’re not wrong, let’s put it that way. Oh. Um, and I think at the very least, this is odd, right? Considering even in 2006 most people had a cell phone.
[00:08:16] But even if you didn’t, and I don’t even know. Yeah, I did. Yes. Okay. It wasn’t that long ago, but. Most people had a landline, certainly. But again, perhaps this was because they were moving, they were in between phones at the time. So that’s, you know how you might explain that because not everyone had cell phones and if they’re moving mm-hmm.
[00:08:32] Then they don’t have a landline. Yep. Even though Josh has internet access. Oh,
[00:08:37] Amy Shlosberg: okay. So it seems a little
[00:08:39] Meghan Sacks: shady. I mean, it’s definitely a red flag. I think so, whatever the reason though, Megan didn’t press the issue, you know, she was happy and so they continued chatting online. And their communication went on like this for several months.
[00:08:52] Amy, in October of 2006, Megan Meyer began to get excited for her upcoming 14th birthday and the [00:09:00] party that her parents were throwing for her. I remember reading this, I didn’t quite know exactly what they were doing, but they were going all out for this. This was like a bash, and I think it was probably her first really big party where she was having.
[00:09:10] Friends? No. Yeah, things were going really well for Megan, and she was just feeling really good about herself, the social bonds that she was making, and she was really excited for her future. But Amy, just as Megan’s whole world seemed like it was falling into place, Megan’s happiness would be quickly shattered.
[00:09:28] You see, on October 16th, seemingly out of nowhere, Megan got a message from Josh online saying that he wasn’t sure if he wanted to be friends with her anymore. Because he heard that Megan was not nice to her friends. Yeah. Megan had no idea what he was talking about, but Josh wouldn’t answer any of her questions going silent over their chat box.
[00:09:51] Amy Shlosberg: Oh my God. And this is so hard for a teenager.
[00:09:54] Meghan Sacks: Oh, of course. It’s like a, it’s very traumatizing. Megan became [00:10:00] frantic and by the next day when she got home from school, she went right to the computer to see if Josh had left any comments in their chat. And you know what? The silence was bad, but what she found was much worse.
[00:10:12] Josh had publicly posted their private messages where the two had talked about Megan’s personal feelings. Her friends and even her potential plans for intimacy with Josh. Oh boy.
[00:10:25] Amy Shlosberg: Yeah,
[00:10:26] Meghan Sacks: this, I hate that. So basically this is all over the internet for anyone to see and find. So this is what we’re talking about.
[00:10:33] This is very damaging and very traumatic. Now, Megan was hysterical. She called your mother Tina, who instructed Megan to sign off immediately. But Tina was out with her other daughter and Megan did not do what she was told and sign off, which I think. A lot of us would not have. But unfortunately for Megan, she kept receiving these awful messages from Josh that afternoon and from other classmates and people who were reading these public posts.[00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Oh, her classmates started publicly posting that Megan was quote fat and quote a slut. This was awful. Megan was destroyed. Oh, this is so sad. It, it really is. It’s so sad how cruel people are, you know? Tina called her daughter back a few hours later to find that Megan was still frantically watching all of these horrible comments pouring in.
[00:11:25] She told her tearful daughter again to log off, but Megan still did not, and maybe it was that she couldn’t, perhaps she was paralyzed in front of her screen by these destructive messages that kept coming in. The worst of which arguably came from Josh when he wrote. Quote, everybody in O’Fallon knows how you are.
[00:11:46] You’re a bad person and everybody hates you, have a shitty rest of your life. The world would be a better place without you. Okay. Awful. When Tina finally arrived home, Megan was still in front of the computer and much to her [00:12:00] regret afterwards, Tina did not understand the full scope of what was going on.
[00:12:04] Amy, I just wanna be clear. So at the time she was so mad, she scolded Megan for not getting off MySpace as she had instructed her to do so. Mm-hmm. A hysterical, Megan ran upstairs to her room yelling, you’re supposed to be my mom. You’re supposed to be on my side. Just 20 minutes later, Tina found Megan hanging by a belt inside her closet.
[00:12:27] Amy Shlosberg: Please tell me she was still breathing and she was able to help her down.
[00:12:31] Meghan Sacks: Her parents frantically pulled the closet door down or the closet kind of wall that she was. Mm-hmm. Sort of, you know, hanging from, they cut the belt and they performed C P R immediately. But so sadly Amy, it did not work. Megan died the next day.
[00:12:45] So tragic. It is tragic. It’s also tragic that she survived, you know, at first to get to the hospital. So there was some hope. Tina and Ron were devastated. They gave an interview with the local news about their daughter’s death. I’ve seen Ron and Tina give this [00:13:00] interview and it is absolutely heartbreaking cuz not only are they discussing, you know, what it was like, they discuss very candidly what it was like to find her, to grab her, to try to pull her down from this closet structure.
[00:13:11] You know, they describe it kind of blow by blow. But they also wanted to know who’s this Josh person who had said all these terrible things to Megan about Megan. So they were looking to discover the identity of Josh. Mm-hmm. Uh, but when Ron looked on MySpace, Josh’s page, not surprisingly, had totally vanished.
[00:13:30] Did Word get
[00:13:31] Amy Shlosberg: out at this point that she had died by suicide? Yes. That’s why he probably took it all down. Okay.
[00:13:36] Meghan Sacks: Yes, absolutely. And Ron and Tina brought this information to the police, but the police said there wasn’t. Anything they could do at that time because Josh didn’t exist, so they couldn’t find him.
[00:13:47] But also Amy, because there weren’t any laws at that point. You probably know this about online bullying.
[00:13:53] Amy Shlosberg: Yes, yes. And at that point, you know, it’s seen as horrible as is. It is. You could argue that it’s freedom
[00:13:59] Meghan Sacks: of [00:14:00] speech, unfortunately. I think that, I don’t agree
[00:14:03] Amy Shlosberg: with that. Of course. No, but that’s no,
[00:14:04] Meghan Sacks: the law of the law, it was, and, and I think their hands were somewhat tied at that time, so I.
[00:14:11] Ron and Tina were so distraught to know that not only could they not save their daughter, but there might not be any justice for Megan, but the Myers would catch a break just six weeks later when a woman contacted them about Josh Evans revealing a bombshell about his true identity. The woman who contacted the Myers said that her daughter knew the person who had created Josh’s profile, and as the police had suspected, Josh was not a real person.
[00:14:39] But that’s not the shocking part cuz I think we all kind of had that idea. The shocking part was the person responsible for creating the Josh profile.
[00:14:49] Amy Shlosberg: This is all coming back to me now. Is this the mother of the
[00:14:52] Meghan Sacks: friend? Absolutely correct. Unfortunately. So the person responsible was Lori Drew, the [00:15:00] mother of Megan’s former friend and neighbor, Sarah Drew.
[00:15:03] Not only was this a bombshell for the obvious reason that this is a grown woman bullying a child,
[00:15:10] Amy Shlosberg: Megan, I’m assuming in a case like this, all they had to do is track the IP address and it led them to this
[00:15:15] Meghan Sacks: woman. Well, it’s not only that they knew her identity, so they were able to get her computers now.
[00:15:20] So it made it much easier. Yes, because this, this woman had provided a name for them, so they couldn’t do anything before. And remember, computer forensics were not as sophisticated then police departments weren’t dealing with them on a regular basis. This was such a bombshell. Also though, Amy, because Lori and Tina had been friends.
[00:15:37] Mm-hmm. Lori and her husband Kurt, attended Megan’s funeral and offered consolation to the Myers. They had stayed so close, in fact, that when Lori and her husband asked if they could hide their kids Christmas presents in the Myers garage, they said yes without even thinking about it. This is how close they remained.
[00:15:55] So when they left the meeting with this woman, the Myers went home. They went into their [00:16:00] garage where they had been, you know, storing the Drew’s kids presents. They destroyed the Christmas presents, brought them over to the drew home, placed them in their driveway, and spray painted the message. Merry Christmas.
[00:16:13] Wow.
[00:16:14] Amy Shlosberg: I probably, I mean, if that’s all they did, that’s, I think some parents would’ve reacted even
[00:16:18] Meghan Sacks: stronger. Well, also the Drews now realize that the Myers were aware of Lori’s involvement in Megan’s death, so they quickly responded. They walked over to the Myers home, banged on their door. And said they could explain, but Ron told them to get off their property and they never opened the door.
[00:16:35] How do you even explain that? I’m not sure, but shockingly, Lori and her husband did this a few more times. As they kept going, it seemed like they were trying to go them into opening the door. It didn’t seem like a genuine need to explain and apologize. The Drews also sent a letter expressing their desire to meet with the Myers, but the Myers did not respond.
[00:16:54] They never answered it, and they refused to meet with them. And the neighborhood tides were also shifting against a newly [00:17:00] exposed Lori and the neighbors clearly were siding with Ron and Tina. Mm-hmm. Which appeared to have put some pressure on Lori. Was
[00:17:07] Amy Shlosberg: Lori denying
[00:17:08] Meghan Sacks: anything? Here’s what happened, Lori. No, she didn’t deny it.
[00:17:13] When Lori started to feel this pressure, she called the police herself and confessed. To creating this fake profile, but she said this was her explanation. This was never meant to harass Megan, but rather to find out how Megan felt about her daughter. Sarah, remember their friendship had been disintegrating and she said Sarah was very sad and depressed as well, and so they were just trying to find out what was going on.
[00:17:36] Lori Drew also insisted on documenting her own fear of reprisal from other people in the neighborhood who now knew she was behind the fake catfishing scheme. So we’ll discuss, by the way, catfishing a bit later in this episode as we have in previous episodes, just to be clear. But for now, Lori Drew called the police several more times saying that she was being bullied by the neighbors, and her daughter was scared by [00:18:00] their behavior.
[00:18:01] So Lori reported a brick being thrown through her window and a paintball being shot at her house, as well as verbal assault from neighbors who were driving by. Lori Drew also claimed that these acts were all committed by the Myers, but some felt that, well, there was kind of mixed opinion, was it? And most people didn’t feel it was the Myers, but some felt that it was Lori fabricating or committing these acts herself in order to bring suit against the Myers.
[00:18:29] The story is really unbelievable as you as I go through it, unbelievable, and I even kind of knew it, but it still shocks me. But finally, after reading a piece on harassment, almost a year after Megan died, Megan’s aunt contacted the media to bring attention to her case because. She didn’t feel anything was being done and bring attention.
[00:18:49] It sure did. When it was made public that Lori Drew was behind the Josh profile, Lori made statements that shifted blame to a longtime family friend and [00:19:00] employee of Lori’s home advertising business. Then 18 year old. Ashley Grills.
[00:19:06] Amy Shlosberg: So she’s saying she had nothing to do with it, and this person was just using her computer.
[00:19:11] Meghan Sacks: She is placing most of the blame on Ashley, let’s put it that way. Okay. For creating this idea. I think what she was saying is that she was minimally involved, but it was really Ashley’s mastermind idea. And this is really interesting because though Ashley did not know Megan or the Myers and would have no motive to wanna harm them, she was friends with the Drews, but she did something as well.
[00:19:32] When the media picked up her name, she decided to go public. So, you know, I would encourage people if they wanna see some of these interviews to go ahead and watch them and make up your own mind in an interview on a, b, c news. Ashley said that it was her and Sarah Drew who came up with the idea of creating a Josh profile because Sarah had felt so betrayed by Megan.
[00:19:53] You know, ditching her, but Ashley stated that Lori had been involved from the beginning saying that it was a [00:20:00] good idea from the start and urging the girls to go forward with the plan.
[00:20:03] Amy Shlosberg: Who’s the one who was like actually posting? Did, were they pointing fingers
[00:20:06] Meghan Sacks: at each other? This girl, Ashley, to her credit was not, she said she did a lot of the postings herself.
[00:20:11] She said Sarah didn’t. Okay. She said Lori had been involved a few times. Lori
[00:20:16] Amy Shlosberg: was the only adult in the si. Well, would you say she was 18? Ashley? Yeah,
[00:20:20] Meghan Sacks: but, but Lori was the adult here. She’s a parent. So she’s more of the adult here, right? Mm-hmm. I would think so. So Ashley stated, you know, again, Lori was involved from the beginning, but she took full credit for what she did and put a lot of the blame on herself.
[00:20:33] She explains that they had found this photo of, you know, a good looking young man named Josh, and they created this fake profile to engage Megan to snare her. And according to Ashley, all three of them did take turns writing as Josh. However, Lori denied all of this saying it was only it Ashley who done the actual writing.
[00:20:51] So that’s to answer your question. So she’s the only one
[00:20:53] Amy Shlosberg: not taking the high road here.
[00:20:55] Meghan Sacks: I don’t know what Sarah’s stance was at this point, but I do know that [00:21:00] Ashley. She’s guilty and she’s responsible and she says that, but it seemed like she was being honest about her behavior. Mm-hmm. And not minimizing it.
[00:21:07] Okay. And according to Ashley, she was the one who wrote the final message that the world would be a better place without you. And she said that she felt, you know, absolute remorse after that. I don’t know, you know, take this with a grain of salt. She did say that she didn’t write this message to, uh, so that Megan would.
[00:21:24] Do something, you know, harm herself, but rather she wrote this to try to put an end to the relationship with Josh because she was starting to feel like this was just not a good situation. Mm-hmm. You can believe that or not to believe it. She did again, take credit for being the person who wrote that final awful message.
[00:21:39] Mm-hmm. Okay. But here’s the question. With no laws against online bullying on the books, could anyone actually be charged in this case? Well, federal prosecutors did find a way to charge Lori Drew with a crime, but just maybe not the ones you would think of initially. Not Ashley, just Lori. Yes. At this point, they were just charging [00:22:00] Lori with a crime.
[00:22:01] She was charged under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. For fraudulently violating my space’s terms and conditions. Hmm. But this is a very tricky prosecution because this was an unprecedented application of this law. The federal government took over the case as Missouri as they said. They couldn’t find a law that was broken and they said they could not prosecute.
[00:22:23] And so they were fine with turning it over to the federal government. And remember, my space at the time was located in, in California, so it was easier for the federal government to justify why they would mm-hmm. Intercede and take over the prosecution. So they pressed forward, they indicted Lori and brought her to trial in November of 2008.
[00:22:42] Amy Shlosberg: I don’t know much about that act. What are we looking at? The maximum punishment
[00:22:46] Meghan Sacks: for something like this she’d face up to three years in prison. That’s the maximum. Okay.
[00:22:51] Amy Shlosberg: Not, and it’s a felony or misdemeanor. Well, I guess it would have to be a felony.
[00:22:55] Meghan Sacks: Then. She was tried, well, there were several charges and she was tried, just so you know, on both felony and misdemeanor [00:23:00] charges.
[00:23:00] Okay, thanks. During her trial, her daughter Sarah, was called to testify and it was very clear that she did not wanna be there. She testified that her mother never wrote on the page. So, is this true or not? That makes
[00:23:12] Amy Shlosberg: sense. Why wouldn’t she try to help her mother at this
[00:23:14] Meghan Sacks: point? Well, because it’s still committing perjury in a federal trial.
[00:23:17] So, you know, you would think her mother would say a good mother would protect her child from having to do such a thing. Of course. But how old is she at this point? She’s a couple years older, so I wanna say 15 or 16 at this point. So she’s still a
[00:23:29] Amy Shlosberg: minor. I’m assuming a minor could be charged with perjury the same way that they can be charged with other
[00:23:34] Meghan Sacks: crimes.
[00:23:35] That’s correct. You know, I’m not saying that she definitely committed perjury because that’s her testimony, but meanwhile you have Ashley who’s also testifying, and she stated that Lori was involved from the beginning again and had typed some of those messages herself. Okay.
[00:23:49] Amy Shlosberg: So we have conflicting, I’m as I’m assuming that Sarah was a witness for the defense and Ashley for the prosecution?
[00:23:56] Meghan Sacks: No, Sarah. Sarah was also called by the prosecution. She [00:24:00] was okay. She was involved from the, you know, scheme from the start as well. Mm-hmm. So that’s why she was a reluctant witness. So, while Lori was tried, as I said, for both felony and misdemeanor charges, the jury rejected the felony charges, but found her guilty on three misdemeanor counts of computer fraud.
[00:24:17] You know, I had said that she faced up to three years in prison. She was probably facing a little bit more, I don’t remember initially, but with the misdemeanor convictions she faced up to three years in prison. Mm-hmm. But what would happen next? Amy would also surprise and disappoint so many involved in this case because at the conclusion of her trial, Her counsel filed a motion for acquittal, which they often do, and in July of 2009, the judge granted the motion, overturning the jury’s guilty verdict and freeing Lori Drew from any type of criminal conviction.
[00:24:53] Did the judge give reason why? Yes. On the record, the judge basically stated that if Lori Drew [00:25:00] was convicted of these charges for violating the terms of MySpace, then anyone else. Who had violated the terms of MySpace would also be guilty of these crimes. He said this was an overreach of the law and did not comport with the law’s intentional application.
[00:25:17] I don’t disagree,
[00:25:18] Amy Shlosberg: and this is where law becomes, you know, when you look legal and moral. Fault. It’s very difficult because I think it’s clear that this woman should be somehow held responsible for the death of that child, but at the same time, it’s a slippery slope because our legal, you can’t be convicted because you do something that is morally wrong.
[00:25:39] Right? Yeah. You have to go by the law and they just could not find a law. I mean, now it. If it was today, she would be convicted. There are laws, I’m assuming. Oh yeah. I’ll
[00:25:48] Meghan Sacks: discuss the, about that changes. Okay. Now, but I do understand your point. It’s very disappointing. Look, like you said, it’s, it’s disappointing because a young girl died by suicide and it seems so senseless.[00:26:00]
[00:26:00] However, I do see the, the judicial point that it was maybe an overreach of this law, so, you know, but they really wanted to try to get justice for. Megan Meyer’s family. You know, justice happens in different forms though, right? Because Lori was not punished in the courts. However, she was shunned by the community.
[00:26:18] Her business failed, and she was definitely forced to relocate. So while Lori Drew never received what we would call a justice system punishment, perhaps this is one of those cases where a different form of justice takes place. Do you talk about this at all in your classes? Amy? Do you talk about justice through shaming and how extra legal types of shaming can sometimes even be more impactful than being shamed or found guilty in a criminal court?
[00:26:43] Yeah, we
[00:26:44] Amy Shlosberg: talk about it in terms of informal and formal sanctioning and how in some communities, informal sanctioning is much worse than a formal sanction. A formal sanction would be a punishment by formal authority, where informal would be shunning from your community members or some of the [00:27:00] punishment, the informal punishments that you mentioned in
[00:27:02] Meghan Sacks: this case.
[00:27:03] Right? So I wonder if she would’ve been punished. In accordance with the law, this would’ve been a misdemeanor conviction. In misdemeanors, oftentimes the process is the punishment. So just going through all of this. Mm-hmm. But I wonder if, you know, being shunned and being outed and being, you know, basically a pariah, I guess is the word, a pariah in your community, if that might have been almost worse for Lori Drew.
[00:27:23] And
[00:27:24] Amy Shlosberg: if she is a human being, also living with the guilt of what has happened is you can’t get a more punishment than living with yourself after something like this happens. Cuz I don’t think her intention was for this child to
[00:27:36] Meghan Sacks: die. No, I don’t think that was her intention. But maybe you should think about your, you know, your actions have consequences.
[00:27:43] Yes. So what happened after all of this was over? Well, though Tina and her family did not find justice through the courts, there are some very positives that came from this tragedy. Tina founded the Megan Meyer Foundation dedicated to ending cyber bullying. [00:28:00] She does a lot of work in this realm. She’s an advocate.
[00:28:03] She does a lot of speaking. She’s devoted her life now to this. Do you know if the
[00:28:07] Amy Shlosberg: family tried to file a civil suit in
[00:28:09] Meghan Sacks: this case? I’m not sure if they did, because again, okay. You know, it’s that the law wasn’t quite caught up, so I don’t know if they would’ve prevailed civilly. I know it’s definitely a lower standard in the civil courts, so it’s possible that they did, but I’m not sure.
[00:28:24] So I, I don’t wanna say for definite, but I can tell you that. The law did change. So Congress in Missouri passed the Megan Meyer Cyberbullying Prevention Act in 2008. So this essentially criminalized cyber bullying, which unfortunately was too late for Megan, but in time to protect others and punish future offenders of this, you know, very serious form of bullying.
[00:28:47] I think that we focus a lot on in-person bullying, but people. Don’t tend to realize how serious online bullying can be, especially because the potential it has to reach such masses. And [00:29:00] again, bullying one-on-one, I’m not diminishing it because it’s, it’s just as serious. But I felt heartbroken for Megan reading the story that everyone had been exposed to her private thoughts.
[00:29:09] Mm-hmm. So now you’re not just being bullied by one person, you’re being bullied by possibly hundreds and even more. Mm-hmm. So it’s very far reaching. So following Missouri in 2008, most states passed this type of legislation. So that would be, you know, around 2010. With currently 48 states having cyber bullying legislation to punish these offenders.
[00:29:32] I looked it up and I, I’m not sure what the reason is, but it seems that Alaska and Wisconsin are currently the only states who do not have explicit cyber bullying laws. I’m really pleased
[00:29:42] Amy Shlosberg: to hear that. The vast majority of states do. Yes. That’s great because there are many cases that are similar
[00:29:48] Meghan Sacks: to this.
[00:29:48] I absolutely agree and. The problem here also as we know, is that the use of catfishing posing to be someone else complicates the matter. We’ve discussed these cases in which those who catfish are not necessarily [00:30:00] punished because catfishing is also not yet. Illegal in itself, but it often leads to other crimes which include cyber harassment, bullying, illicit sexual acts with minors, defamation by using someone’s identity and so on.
[00:30:17] But again, catfishing to date is not yet a crime. But if I was a betting woman, I would say that’s going to change as well in the future. Do you think so do you think catfishing will be criminalized at some point?
[00:30:27] Amy Shlosberg: I do. Especially when you hear of some of the cases that had outcomes that are similar to this.
[00:30:33] Like that case, what was the case called that we covered on Minds of Madness? Oh, Lindsey
[00:30:36] Meghan Sacks: Cotton. Unbelievable case. Uh, that case. Yeah, they really do shock you. Okay, so let’s talk about how did this happen, right? Lori Drew was clearly an overprotective mother. Someone who did not wanna see her daughter’s feelings hurt.
[00:30:52] And I’m sure that’s, you know, something that many parents struggle with knowing when to interfere and how becomes an important [00:31:00] question. I imagine that, I mean, without getting too personal, I imagine that you somewhat have to deal with this now that your daughter’s getting almost to this age.
[00:31:06] Amy Shlosberg: Yeah. I refuse to let her go on social media.
[00:31:09] Yeah. Some of her friends have social media, but I won’t, I have her, she does text with friends. Mm-hmm. She has like an email address that she could text with people. Okay. I’m constantly watching what they’re saying and anytime anything seems. Even flirting with the idea of bullying. I get in there because I am so Okay,
[00:31:27] Meghan Sacks: so aware.
[00:31:28] There’s also a balance here. As a mother though, I would think all of that. Of course. But isn’t there a balance here? Like Lori Drew decided to intervene in the most serious of ways. Mm-hmm. Wasn’t there an option to let her daughter work it out, or perhaps speak to Megan’s parents like. Her plan doesn’t match the action.
[00:31:44] Like when, do you know where? When to do that? Yes. And draw that line. It’s so complicated. Right? Yeah.
[00:31:49] Amy Shlosberg: And I’ve had to do that in the past, I think I’ve told you about that, is I usually let my daughter figure it out on her own. But there was one situation where I felt that somebody was bullying her. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:58] And. The children weren’t able [00:32:00] to handle it, it seemed so, as much as I didn’t wanna get involved, I texted the mom in a very friendly way. Yes. Just saying like, would you mind, you know, I’m just gonna shut it down on my end. Would you mind telling your daughter to just disengage at this point?
[00:32:12] Meghan Sacks: Right. That seems like, and that seems like a responsible way to handle it, but it seems that Lori drew as her and Sarah became more involved in this scam on Megan.
[00:32:22] Mm-hmm. They really seemed to take pleasure in getting her hopes up and crushing them. In some ways, I think Lori and her daughter were people who felt a lack of control, so much so over their social relationships that they acted out in a way that would allow them to be almost in control and, and take more power demonstrating their power over people.
[00:32:41] I think it’s, to be honest, I think it’s predatory in nature, but had Lori told her daughter, this was wrong, this is not the way to handle the situation. This would’ve had a different outcome, but instead of doing that, she’s not only allowing it, she’s condoning it. So she’s reinforcing this bad behavior because I [00:33:00] think she felt great about taking that power.
[00:33:02] Mm-hmm. Back and punishing this girl for hurting her child. So she has a distorted process as
[00:33:09] Amy Shlosberg: well. Yes. And as a mother, uh, anyone who has a child, I’m sure feels the same way. You want to protect your child, but not at the expense of
[00:33:18] hurting
[00:33:18] Meghan Sacks: someone else’s. Exactly. I also think behind a screen, I mean we could talk about that mm-hmm.
[00:33:23] Allows those people who feel powerless to revel in control and fantasy. Yep. Because they don’t have to face their victims. It becomes, we did discuss this in the Minds of Madness episode, it becomes a cruel obsession and an addiction. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, it feeds all sorts of bad continuing behaviors and obviously the consequences are disastrous.
[00:33:45] And you know, the irony in this case is that Lori Drew complained about all the online harassment that she suffered after being exposed. Oh boy. I doubt there was a lot of sympathy for her. Nope. Okay. This is the tough question that we ask ourself at the end of [00:34:00] the day, is the one, did the system get it right?
[00:34:03] So how we answer this one is complicated, right? Yep. Because
[00:34:07] Amy Shlosberg: I think, as I said before, when you look at the law, there’s only so much we could do. I do think that Lori and Ashley were culpable. Mm-hmm. And it doesn’t sound like Ashley faced any charges either. So they were culpable in some ways, but. Again, we don’t live in a system and I’m glad we don’t, but we don’t live in a system where you can just, you, you can’t prosecute people on the basis of what you believe is morally wrong.
[00:34:33] And so at the end of the day, maybe the system did get it right, and as I said before, you know Lori’s gonna be living with the guilt of a child dying. As a result of her actions. I know that sounds
[00:34:46] Meghan Sacks: harsh, but No, no, I understand. Technically, yes, the system probably technically did get it right, but the system itself was the problem and the system wasn’t right, would be my final opinion because that is correct.
[00:34:57] Yes, yes. I agree with you. The system [00:35:00] had not yet caught up with technology in many ways, right? Mm-hmm. I think because society wasn’t aware of all the potential dangers at the time of the internet. And we now know all of the host of crimes that have come, but the law is slow to address change. Mm-hmm. So it’s, it’s not necessarily that the system did I get right?
[00:35:18] It’s that the system itself wasn’t right. But again, the legacy here I think is that Megan Meyer’s case was the one that was instrumental in moving us forward in this area of the law. And I hope that that will be the legacy and her mother. I hope that she continues to do the advocacy work she does, and.
[00:35:38] What a legacy to, you know, to leave to have the entire country now moving forward. Mm-hmm. Because of you. So for that, we’d like to end on that positive note, and of course we wish her family well. Mm-hmm. So we’d like to end on a positive note, but we also want to make listeners aware of, you know, what they can do in a crisis situation.
[00:35:58] Amy, would you mind sharing that information with [00:36:00] our listeners? Sure. If
[00:36:01] Amy Shlosberg: you or anyone you know needs support. You can dial 9 88 for the suicide and Crisis Lifeline. And the Lifeline provides 24 7 free and confidential support for people in distress and also provides information for best practices for professionals in the United
[00:36:19] Meghan Sacks: States.
[00:36:20] Great. Thank you very much, Amy. And thank you to everyone for listening to today’s episode on Women in Crime. Women in Crime is hosted by Megan Sachs and Amy Schlossberg. Our producer and editor is James Varga. Music composition is by Dessert Media. If you enjoy the show, please remember to subscribe and leave a review.
[00:36:40] You can also support the show through Patreon. Where you can get access to additional ad free content, such as virtual happy hours, and an extra full length episode each month. For more information, visit patreon.com/women.[00:37:00]
[00:37:09] Sources for today’s episode include. The Megan Meyer Foundation, NBC News, ABC news statista.com, and an article in Wired.