Episode Transcript
The below text transcription was is intended for audience reference and search purposes. Because it is generated automatically by computer, please forgive mis-translations, spelling and the lack of really any structured grammar.
A night that started with the birthday
celebration ended in tragedy when a fire
erupted in the early hours at the
Freeman home among the rubble two adults were
found both with a gunshot wound to the
head however two teenage girls were missing
[Music]
this is episode 28, the Ashley Freeman
and Lauria Bible story
[Music]
hi megan hi amy how are you i’m great
i’m always happy when we’re recording
always happy to be with you megan me too
today’s episode is a little bit
different than usual
as always we’re going to start off
talking about the case but rather than
spend a lot of time dissecting it
at the conclusion we are going to talk
with jax miller
i know i’ve been very excited about this
yeah so jax miller is the author of hell
in the heartland
murder meth and the case of the two
missing girls she’s also one of the producers on the
hln dock on this case
she is awesome i haven’t seen the hln
doc yet i was holding out a little bit
on that one but i did read the book
i was just gonna ask you i could guess
what you thought of it but i could but
we can talk about it later so this one
will also be a little different because
i have a little more knowledge than
normal about your case
but i can talk about this forever
excellent yeah so
the book was excellent and as you’ll
learn shortly jax not only wrote the
book she actually spent several years
investigating this case
and she also has grown quite close to
some of those involved but more on that
later okay the freeman family lived in a small
rural town
of welch oklahoma that’s in northern
oklahoma it’s only i believe eight miles
from the kansas border
right they lived in a trailer on a
remote property very rural area
when you say the family you mean the
freeman family right correct the freeman
family
consisted of year old ashley her
mother kathy and her father danny
the family had recently lost their son
shane shane was just a teenager when he
was involved in a police shooting i’m
going to give you a very brief summary
on what happened with shane because it
might be a little relevant shane had run
away from home and he
told authorities that he was abused by
his father dany
danny was subsequently charged with
assault this was back
in january of . it turns out shane
had stolen a vehicle
and a gun and this all resulted in an
altercation with an officer
which ended in shane pulling a gun and a
deputy firing
and killing shane almost instantly there
was a big investigation and the
sheriff’s department concluded that the
shooting was justified
however the family did not believe that
the shooting was in fact justified
it was hard for them to believe they did
not think that it was self-defense as
the sheriff’s department claimed they
said it was a cold-blooded murder didn’t
they also file
a lawsuit yeah well they were in the
middle of filing a wrongful death
lawsuit
right and that’s why this is going to
come into play later correct exactly
okay the family was very vocal and there
was a big rift between
the police and the freeman family lots
of tension going on
and as i mentioned this becomes possibly
a part of this case
yes so ashley freeman’s best friend was
laura bible
the two girls met in kindergarten and
they were instant friends just like us
they were inseparable both in school and
out of school
in ashley’s family moved about
minutes away but their friendship
remained very strong and laura was quite
close to her parents
laureen and jay and came from a very
tight-knit family
on december th laura and ashley
spent the evening together celebrating
ashley’s th birthday
that day they had gone shopping with
kathy ashley’s mom
they had returned home and they had
birthday cake with her parents and
ashley’s boyfriend jeremy
after the festivities jeremy left about
p.m and he says
everything appeared to be quite normal
and laura stayed the night did you read
this part already that
she was act she had stayed the night
before and she was supposed to go home
and then she asked for permission to
stay another night
so this was like an additional yes and
since it was ashley’s birthday
you know laura’s mom said you have a
dentist appointment early the next day
you have to come home i sort of just had
a little pit in my stomach when i read
that part
i know and the way the parents i don’t
know if you’ve seen the parents talk
about this but the way they explain it
it was
you know it just it’s so heartbreaking
around a.m the next morning the
police received a call stating that the
freeman’s trailer was engulfed in flames
law enforcement showed up on the scene
and they were quick to determine that
the fire had been intentionally started
inside the home the charred remains of
kathy who was at the time
was discovered and she was found lying
on the floor of their bedroom
and an autopsy would soon reveal that
she had been shot in the head
and in fact she was shot prior to the
fire being started
at this point that was the only body
that was found okay
so initially no other remains were
located law enforcement at this time
started to believe that ashley’s father
danny friedman
had likely killed his wife and fled with
both girls
now this goes back to what was going on
with the police the police had a theory
that
danny was so angry about what had
happened with his son
you know just months prior that he
killed his wife and was taking the girls
as a way to hold them hostage it didn’t
make much
sense but no one knew what to think at
this time it didn’t make much sense also
but i did read
in the book that danny also could be
like the nicest guy but was also
volatile and had a bad temper so i could
maybe see
if he’s missing why they’re they’re
exactly going to that assumption and he
has a long history of drug abuse right that
doesn’t mean necessarily that he would
do such a thing but he has
tendencies to be violent when he’s under
the influence and you have to make
certain assumptions when you’re on a
crime scene quickly when they’re
missing children exactly however this
theory didn’t last long number one danny
and kathy’s cars were both there
laura’s car was also in the driveway
actually with the keys in the ignition
and where they lived in a rural area
it’s not that you could just get away on
foot so with the cars all being there it
was a little questionable
either way the local police were quick
to call in the state police
the osbi which is the oklahoma state
bureau of investigation
the local police did this because of the
history with the family oh i remember
that yeah so yes remember there was so they called
it a conflict of interest and i actually
don’t fault them for this i think this
was a smart move because
they were in the middle of a wrongful
death lawsuit with the family and
like i said almost a year prior they had
killed the freeman’s son
totally the right move definitely the
right move the problem is that
people had a big issue with this because
it took a little longer to start
properly investigating
because you have the local police who
aren’t doing much while they’re waiting
for
you know the state police to be called
in and some people say
they lost some time here they probably
did lose time i’m sure the local police
though i would think at a minimum they
put out some type of
i don’t think amber it was a thing
though they probably tried to put out
some type of alert just for the girls or
him you know they probably did some
minimal work they did but as we’ll see
there’s some evidence that ended up
being found that could have led them to
laura and ashley when they were still
alive all right right okay
laura’s parents laureen and jay were
obviously very unhappy with the police’s
response their daughter was missing
so they decided to go to the scene
themselves hoping to find any additional
clues that law enforcement may have
missed and megan get ready for this
while walking around the extensive
rubble they discovered some evidence
you remember i do they discovered
another body in the rubble
and they quickly were able to determine
that it was danny danny had also been
shot in the head execution style
he had a broken collar bone which
suggests that there may have been a
struggle
his body was found not far from kathy’s
no gun was found nearby
quickly people say oh murder suicide
because again everyone wants to look at
danny as the suspect here
however there was no gun found near the
body shooting down that theory so
laureen and her husband found danny’s
body
and not only not only did they find it
they said it was covered by debris and
there were actually
boot prints visible on his body so that
means that officers had stepped over his
body
absolutely okay that’s a serious problem
it’s a serious problem so you have both
the local police and the state police
that are on the scene and somehow they
miss this
at this point lorena and jay are
wondering well what else could they have
missed and they really jumped into
action and they just started
investigating themselves they got
volunteers they were going through
the rubble bit by bit trying to find any
pieces of evidence exactly what i’d do
if it was my daughter there were
absolutely no signs of the missing girls
as i mentioned the police had to change
their initial theory though
right there’s couldn’t it be that danny
had kidnapped the girls it couldn’t be a
murder-suicide
so now they’re thinking maybe it was a
drug deal gone bad
people around town knew that danny was
heavily involved in drugs
they really didn’t think it could be a
random attack and as we see
often this kind of crime very rarely is
a random attack i wouldn’t have thought
random attack either
was danny involved in i know that he
used marijuana but he was also
involved in meth correct we don’t know
we’re not definitely
reports that he was okay at the very
least he hung around with a lot of
people who ran in those circles
okay so the police are thinking could it
have been the girls perhaps
remember how he said that danny had
abused shane
well ashley had a hard time with the
death of her brother and some say
that she may have been upset about her
brother’s death and maybe
the father was also abusing ashley maybe
kathy stepped in to protect his daughter
and then maybe the girls killed danny
and they fled
okay sounds like a probable theory
except the cars were there and the girls
pocket books were still in the home
with all of their belongings but i do
want to mention one thing that was
curious
is that apparently ashley had stored
four thousand dollars in cash in the
freezer
she was a hard worker and she was saving
up for a car so other family members
told the police about this
and that money was actually gone so this
theory that the girls did it and fled
no evidence of this highly unlikely some
people suggest that maybe she offered
the perpetrators this money as a way to
have them leave so that’s possible
that’s why the money is missing but no
one
there’s no confirmation that that money
was in fact there anyway i don’t
remember that that’s interesting okay
as usually happens with these types of
cases lots of tips came in but they were
all dead ends
several people called in sightings of
danny and the girls however we know
danny was dead so that can’t be possible
right the freemans and many others
believed that the local sheriff’s
department was responsible
there was this huge conspiracy theory do
you remember hearing about i do
yes apparently danny had told his
brother soon before
the fire that if anything had happened
to him look at the sheriff’s department
there was a lot of
intimidation and harassment going on
between danny and the sheriff’s
department again because of what had
happened with their son shane
right the family was in the process of
filing a wrongful death
suit and i did read somewhere that they
only had one week
until that expired because it’s supposed
to be within a year and that is i mean
unfortunately that’s just
very coincidental and that happens
sometimes of course
yeah i mean that hence a coincidence but
still i mean i understand why
there was some scrutiny on this i also
do this theory was ruled out pretty
quickly by the state police
it seemed like a stretch really i think
to say that the police would obliterate
a whole family over a wrongful death
lawsuit
i mean if it was just danny that was
gone to be honest or just the parents
uh you know i wouldn’t necessarily say
that means you know the police did it
but it has it would hold a little bit
more water so i think you’re right
it’s a real stretch yeah at this time
there was a local inmate who came
forward and said he had seen lauren
ashley
at a new year’s eve party and they were
drugged raped and tortured
the police searched the home that he
alleged that this happened at and they
found absolutely nothing i do want to
point out that many other people came
forward with this
party that they saw the girls at this
new year’s eve party i remember reading
this
yeah it’s really awful the community
really banded together for the searches
of the girls
in january of there was a large
memorial service held for danny and
kathy
the investigation continued on again no
real leads
zero signs of the girls there was a
fifteen thousand dollar reward that was
offered
every time they offered a reward again
lots of tips would come in
but they were all dead ends the police
started looking at neighboring states
and at other crimes
i don’t know if you recall hearing about
this but two death row inmates confessed
to these crimes at two different times
no do you know who tommy lynn cells is
oh that sounds familiar i do but i don’t
know so tommy lynn cells committed a
crime that was very similar
and very close the day after the fire
now
when tommy lynn cells confessed to the
crime he was on death row and in fact he
was executed back in .
he of course confessed after he was
ruled out
then we see john paul chapman and you
know john paul chapman what’s his real
name
jeremy jones yep he was also in the area
and
seemed to know things about the case
such as the type of gun used and the
accelerant use and that information was
not released to the public so the police
started thinking maybe he actually did
know something but after going jumping
through all the hoops like they usually
do
you know take take me to the scene took
him to the scene they found nothing he
ends up recanting
so megan if you’re on death row why
would you confess to crimes that you did
not commit
to extend my stay on death row exactly
you want
so you want to extend your say because
at the end of your stay is death right
right
you get more cases more privileges more
time in the courts it just extends your
time exactly and also a lot of people on
death row they just want to play the
system they are
bored i was just going to say that also
don’t discount the fact that there’s
boredom and like you know
there’s a tension that comes with that
so there’s actually a multitude of
reasons yeah and also you want to leave
your cell
you get to go with the police i’ll show
you where the body is let’s take a ride
to a rural area that kills the whole day
that you could have been on death row
staring at the wall
tommy linsell’s confessed to over
murders while he was
on death row so i teach serial killers
and i can tell you that a lot of serial
killers
over confess by a lot and it’s for those
reasons
i guess that doesn’t surprise me it
could also be megan as you know in
prison you get visitation
you get more time on the kiosk you get a
different meal
when you’re in a desperate situation
like that you will do anything you have
nothing to lose nothing to lose nope
either way we’re going you know we have
all of these leads and everything ends
up a dead end
in the osbi released details about
two vehicles that had been seen around
the crime scene
again nothing came out of this it just
pissed the public off because they
wanted to know why didn’t we hear this
sooner
right so my point is that there were
little things here and there happening
but for the most part the case went
pretty cold
so let’s fast forward until when
the case finally started moving again
and as we often see some say it was
thanks to the family and friends of the
girls who would not give up on their
search
i read about laureen and i mean she
seemed to be the driving force behind
this
absolutely she still is and we’ll i
definitely want to talk to jax about her
because from what i understand they have
quite a strong relationship now that’s
great
so between you know the family not
giving up and also
some new people taking a look at some
old evidence the police were able to
identify
three perpetrators oh my gosh
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[Music]
two of three have since died phil welch
was considered the ringleader
and david pennington the third ronnie
busick is still alive he had been in and
out of prison
on drug-related convictions for nearly
years right
he’s been apprehended at this time he
was in fact incarcerated at the time he
was arrested in relation to the girl’s
death right
he’s a career criminal oh absolutely and
since he was the only
one alive of the three suspected
perpetrators he
uh was being charged with four counts of
first-degree murder two counts of
kidnapping
and arson details of the girls horrific
final
days finally emerged they went to the
trailer to settle a drug debt and when
things didn’t go as planned they killed
kathy
and danny i heard that the girls were
able to escape the trailer and hide out
in the fields but
unfortunately the perpetrators did find
them and
from what some informants said they just
wanted to have a little fun with the
girls
the girls were kept alive for an unknown
number of days
some reports say one to two weeks an
ex-girlfriend of welch told police that
he had decorated his trailer with ashley
and laura’s missing person
posters but she didn’t think to call the
police also
welch had polaroids that showed ashley
and laura bound and gagged on his bed
this was
this is was the key piece of evidence
right someone he showed the polaroids to
a few people
they end up having at least a dozen
witnesses who came forward to say that
they saw these photos
and they say that the men kept these
photographs as trophies
to brag about their crimes and to use it
to threaten other witnesses to keep them
silent
i also read that phil walsh was one of
the most sadistic
human beings he i mean what i read about
him was probably more awful than
anyone i’ve studied before absolutely it
turns out many people knew about what
was going on but they were scared to
death of phil
and his crew another witness told
authorities that the girls were held for
days at phil’s trailer
they were raped violently they had
parties that
other people would abuse the girls and
then eventually they were strangled to
death
and the police believed that their
bodies were then thrown in a pit
there’s all these mine shafts in the
area and several people have come
forward saying that they do believe that
that’s where the
bodies were done so at this point the
focus is really on recovering the body
of these
two victims i read that that’s oh sorry
i read that it’s always been laureen’s
focus
so even when these perpetrators were
identified and apprehended she said
i want my daughter’s remains yep as we
often see megan
closure for victims it usually doesn’t
occur when someone is finally
apprehended and charged for the crime
she wants to have a proper burial for
her daughter right
they felt like they finally might have
had a chance when in july of very
recently
business took a plea now he was or he is
almost
years old at this time he took a plea
deal to a lesser charge
one count of accessory to murder in the
first degree in exchange for his
commitment to help investigators find
the team’s remains
at first i’m looking at this thinking
this isn’t a
strong enough deal because his deal was
that he would serve years in prison
if the remains are not found
and only five if they could find their
remains before august st
so i think it’s really interesting that
the investigators put a time
on this they said if you don’t get us
these girls bodies by august st
then the deal is over because i don’t
think they want him to dilly-dally them
around for
a long time exactly and the age he is i
think people also know he’s in very bad
health
i saw that he’s in really poor health
you know at this point it’s a death
sentence they want him punished but she
wants her the remains exactly and that’s
exactly what laureen would say
yeah yeah of course i want him to be
punished but he’s been in and out of
jail the last years anyway so he’s
kind of being punished in some sense at
this point she just wants her girl back
and the day that we record this is just
a couple of days after
august st so i was watching i was like
glued to my computer because august st
was the deadline
if you don’t give us the location of
these girls bodies you’re getting the
higher end of that
that’s a couple days ago two days ago so
ronnie busick was sentenced to years
in prison
they also gave him credit for the two
years that he has been in jail so he has
years in
so really eight years in and then five
years of probation he told the police
several places to search
but in fact nothing showed up oh and i’m
not sure that it’s because
he’s leading them to the wrong place i
think it’s possible that the remains are
just
hard to find at this point hard to find
it may have been that phil welsh
um or welch sorry uh was more of the
leader and it could have been even that
the other accomplice helped dispose or
it could be because of
years of substance abuse he can’t
remember not only that he
also suffered a gunshot wound to the
head i mean i doubt
you know he’s taken he’s taken a plea
he’s admitted his guilt i doubt he’s
actually stringing them along at this
point i agree
i don’t think i don’t think he’s
purposely not telling them where the
bodies is i think he did the best he
could
but either way he’s only getting he’s
only going to be in prison another eight
years but
again even though he’s only or
he’s an
old or decades of drug abuse a
gunshot wound to the head he’s not in
good health here
i’ll go back to him again too and try to
i would imagine they’re going to go back
a couple times and try to even make
another plea and
you know what can you remember yeah i
can’t imagine that they’ll give up
i don’t think they will so i feel for
this family they still don’t have that
closure
i can’t wait to talk to jax one of the
things you mentioned earlier though that
i wanted to follow up about
is there was a key piece of evidence
found
almost immediately that could have told
could have saved the girls lives do you
remember what this key piece of evidence
is
yeah so they found the insurance card of
one of
phil’s girlfriend at the time and if the
girls were in fact kept alive
if they had used that evidence
immediately like they should have it
could have led them right to the girls
because those polaroids
showing the girls was the bedspread that
were that was in phil’s trailer
the address on the card could have led
them to the girls
immediately and if the girls were kept
alive they they could have found them
alive
it’s such an unfortunate oversight and
it does show you that there was some
serious botches in this investigation in
the beginning when
you know the local police transferred it
to the state police
that was the point where things were
moving slow and they weren’t searching
the scene the way they should have
that card was the key piece of evidence
and i do believe that
that piece of evidence was one of the
most if not the most important pieces of
evidence in
that led to the arrests of the three men
i wish they had investigated properly
because i think that while danny and
kathy
were killed immediately i think these
girls could have been recovered alive
and i think it’s such a tragedy all
round that they were not
i mean i i also would like to know a lot
more now about laureen and
the other people involved and where they
stand given the apprehension of
ronnie busick and going forward what’s
going what looks like it’s going to
happen now and we’ll also keep an
eye on this case since it’s so new the
sentencing is so new well i’m definitely
interested to see if anything else comes
out of this because the police do
believe that now that
there’s this new interest in the case
the sentencing just happened the book
just came out
i’ve heard that there’s suspicion that
there are several more people involved
it was not just those three men because
remember that new year’s eve party
yes that there’s other people that were
involved in you know in the sexual
assault of these young girls
it sounds like it well thanks amy uh
maybe we could turn it over to our
interview now to jax
miller yes enjoy this interview with jax
miller
author of hell in the heartland murder
meth
and the case of the two missing girls
so jax first off i’m sure you get this a
lot
but i would love to hear how did your
interest in true crime begin well first
of all thank you so much for having me
i’m very excited to be here
i love being a woman and i love writing
crime so this is uh
very special so thank you um you know i
don’t have a good answer i think
everybody expects me to have this like
great prolific answer as to how i got
into this case and it was really kind of
one of those darts out of phone book
things
when i decided i wanted to kind of shift
gears a little bit and go from fiction
to non-fiction
yeah i was looking at a few different
cases you know this one
just drew me in i think it was because
initially because i was close to the
girl’s age
i went out there for a couple weeks just
to kind of get a lay of the land i was
living in ireland at the time
and once i met laureen bible especially
once i met the relatives and the
families and i saw everyone involved
it’s like
i can’t not write this story you know
and um i’ve been a part of it ever since
well that was that’s actually a nice
segue to my next question
is what was the process of writing the
book because i understand that you spent
several years were you actually living
in oklahoma at some point
so there’s varying reports out there as
to how much time i spent out there um
they weren’t always consecutive so i’d
spend a few months here a few months
there
and i moved around a lot you know just
for more for safety reasons you know i
don’t want people knowing where i was
you’re in a small town
but what was important to me going there
first is i really just wanted to get a
lay of the land
the smells the food the people get that
lingo and that and that vernacular
and that was important to me because i i
i don’t see a point of writing from a
desk
true crime i think you have to write it
from the heart you have to get in there
and pull people in instead of bringing
it to a reader you need to bring the
reader in
we read a lot of true crime and i have
to say you get that feel it is very
clear that you are fully immersed
i felt literally like you just said i
felt like i was pulled in
and i became so invested in the story
and i do i read
tons of true crime that’s pretty much
all i you know devour true and fiction
but
that’s what i thought i thought you did
thank you very much that means a lot to
me
so our listeners just heard about the
case so i’m not going to get too much
into the details but just generally
speaking what do you think were some of
the biggest mistakes made in the
investigation
oh you know it’s so hard to say because
for legal reasons i’ve had to walk a
very fine line
between putting information out there
versus
saying what i really feel you know we’ve
had to avoid words like corruption
because that calls for operation of the
mind i can’t say he’s corrupt
without evidence you know what so i’ve
had to walk a very fine line so let me
think about how to answer this um
i think from the get-go there were
problems i think that was made evident
when laureen
and jay found the body and you have to
remember this is not what you see on tv
this
is a gruesome scene you gotta imagine
what that looks like what it smelled
like it’s a horrible traumatizing thing
and they neglected to to put the girls
on the
on the databases the ncic for you know
for getting the girls faces out there
so nobody was looking for the girls and
that’s just a few i think
there were so many other smaller things
that didn’t make the book a lot of
things that could have been done
differently absolutely can i add one or
just ask you how big this was without
giving too much away but i thought
there was a significant oversight with
the identification or a driver’s license
an id card of
one of the suspects being found early on
an insurance card a card that traced to
one of the suspects that could have
possibly
meant had they followed that lead
immediately possibly saving the girls
lives
absolutely and and you know that’s
something you didn’t really
know until . you know it’s kind of
crazy because when i came to this story
in like late early
versus where we are today so much has
evolved so i’ve kind of
been on this ride along the way so when
i first came in we had no idea about
this insurance
at least i didn’t and then um in
when it finally came out it was like oh
my gosh
yeah and like i think that was the
biggest revelation was had they followed
up with this
i do believe that they would have found
the girls perhaps damaged probably
you know but alive nonetheless you know
even if they weren’t alive at least they
would have led them to the bodies maybe
it wasn’t just the insurance card that
that same private investigator traced
the car belonging to phil welch that was
supposedly used to transport the girls
that was another big one
the witness that they didn’t know about
until
you know who who saw the girls like
probably the last one outside their
captors to see the girls you know things
like this that just
we did not know until
and yes i think that they were things
that could have been discovered very
early on i mean for god’s sakes they had
phil welch they they questioned him in
what i think
i mean there was so much so much yeah
it’s so unfortunate so unfortunate
how many people do you think actually
knew about the rape and murder of these
girls
while it was actually going on or do you
think it was all just after the fact
that people knew
again i have to be careful um were there
do you think there were multiple people
that knew
i think there were more i do think they
were more um
the reason i have to be careful is
because there’s stuff that has not been
made public
i believe that there were more not just
after the fact but
at that time i think phil welch was a
terrifying man that i couldn’t even
put into words there are people who
still won’t talk about him in death
there are still people who are too
scared of him even after he’s dead
yeah he i i think people didn’t know
back then but i think they were too
scared of him to say anything so what
was the most difficult part of the
process for you
i think people expect me to say some
crazy action-packed thing something
scary
but what was hardest for me was seeing
the love if that makes sense i don’t
know if that makes sense
seeing how much these girls were loved
that pulls on your heartstrings that’s
hard to go home with
you know i i always say i can i can sit
with a murderer in a park i could i
could talk to
to this person and that person and and
this suspect and that
but when you see grieving family members
mourn for their loved ones that to me is
the hardest thing
i think i know you’re very close with
some of the victims family members i’m
wondering do they hold out hope and were
they surprised or let down by the recent
revelation that buck in fact did not
have the information leading to the
girls
something i learned very early on about
these families and
i can’t say that that this is the case
for other families in the same
predicament
but they don’t get their hopes up i
don’t know if that’s from experience
or if that’s just how they are naturally
if you know that’s part of their
disposition but they they don’t get
their hopes up
they don’t think about the what-ifs they
can’t and
and perhaps that’s the way to protect
themselves i don’t know why they do that
so when ronnie busick said that he knew
more than what he said and that he could
lead them to the girls
i don’t think anyone got their hopes up
but i can only speak for myself and i
know i’ve been
i’ve had times where i feel like we’re
so close and i’ve got my hopes up and
then i just get
so depressed when they don’t find the
girls they don’t do that they keep
fighting it’s like okay that didn’t work
out what’s next
and that’s always been how that how they
uh how they are do you think
business is actually hiding out any
information or do you think he simply
doesn’t remember due to the prolonged
drug use and i know he suffered some
brain injury do you think he actually
knows where the girls are
it depends on the day when you ask me i
feel like my mind changes i have days
where i’m convinced he knows something
and i have days when i’m convinced he
doesn’t
right now i don’t think he was
purposefully lying when he led
the the authority that root cellar
picture recently
i think he was wrong obviously he was
wrong because you know we didn’t find
anything but
i don’t think he was being malicious i
think he tried his best but i think that
the drugs have
messed him up well it was also in his
best interest to help the police because
they were going to give him a better
deal yeah that’s my opinion as well is
that
he had nothing to lose by by pointing to
the girls i don’t know if maybe
in his head he thought well that would
just tie me directly to them and he
still says he had nothing to do with
their murders
i’m i i don’t know or some people have
said no he likes this game he he knows
how to
how to get what do you want you know i
don’t know him yeah so i can’t say
and somebody like him might not care
about spending a decade in prison he
might know that he might not make it
those whole years or maybe he has
nothing else going on and
that works for him well he’s been you
know he has spent most of his adult life
in prison anyway i mean he he’s not
that’s what i’m saying it’s home for him
he’s not bothered by it megan did you
have any questions before
i jax i have two questions first
is was this crime premeditated
it depends which theory you believe is
you know um and i i know that we’re not
not trying to give away
too much about the book but i i want to
know if this cri i don’t know because i
i i think
it would require me to to pick a side is
this drugs or is this the police
and i really am divided i have days
where i’m like this was a drug thing and
i have days when this is a police thing
is it a mix of both i do have a pretty
strong opinion but
i don’t put it out there because i don’t
feel like this is over yet i feel like
once this is all said and done i can
kind of open up a little more
it wasn’t premeditated i don’t know phil
welch
learning about him and i i’ve learned a
lot about him even in my recent trip to
oklahoma after the story
he wasn’t scared of anyone wasn’t scared
of anyone and i think danny freeman was
that kind of person too wasn’t scared of
anyone and i think that those
personalities
clashed real quick in the middle of the
night and that’s what happened
okay was it over drugs did the cops send
phil
there i don’t know was the abduction of
the girls premeditated in europe in my
opinion i think that
was a means of opportunity i don’t
believe that they were targeted
i don’t believe that somebody went there
saying
go get the girls i don’t know whether or
not
actually okay this has been made public
recently so i can say this but it wasn’t
in my book
it was recently learned that the girls
did escape the fire
that they went to go hide in the pasture
and the flames of the house lit up and
one of the men
saw them and they chased them down and
corralled them we know that now
um that was i don’t believe that’s in
the book the girls yeah well not maybe
that wasn’t the primary goal but maybe
it was like hey well
you know we’re going there for we’re
going there anyway so yeah i think phil
will
i i think phil welch saw a means of
opportunity i think he was
he was that person okay my second
question for you
would be this and it’s a hard question
and i feel bad asking it but i’m going
to
do you think laureen blames danny
freeman
and kathy or herself at any level for
what happened to her daughter
or do you think she appropriately places
blame with the people who
committed the crime i think she is a
very hard woman to read
and i’ve asked her these questions
myself she does believe that danny’s
dealings did bring trouble to the house
i don’t think she
believes that like he did this or that
this is his fault necessarily but i
think she
she knows that you know her opinion is
that it was his
is his dealings with drugs and nobody
really knows how big those dealings were
um that just brought trouble to the
house attracted unwanted attention
but i don’t think she’s like you know
danny cream and killed my
my child or anything like that she’s
also very reserved lorena so it’s really
hard to
tell what she really believes she won’t
let you know with ronnie busick
we were in court with her and she she
said you know she she talked about
forgiveness of ronnie busick which i
thought was so powerful
that even though this is a man who has
definitely you know had a part in her
daughter’s death that she’s still
able to forgive i think that’s and she
is a forgiving woman i mean if you can
forgive
one of the men who murdered your
daughter i think that’s so powerful
so i think regardless of what she
believes or who she blames she’s a
forgiving woman
i think that’s impressive i’m certain
that i would not be capable of that
forgiveness so
take a special kind of human to be able
to forgive on that level
yeah yeah you know i think she’s so
powerful and i’ve said to her like i
don’t know how you
fight i mean i i said truth be told that
was my daughter and my daughter’s the
same age as laura now
i says i’d probably end up drinking
myself to death i really could not
fight like you do i i could not do what
you do and she said to me well you don’t
know how strong you were till you have
to be that’s what she always says to me
you know yeah i hear that a lot sorry i
do have
oh yeah i literally have one more
question and it was it’s just one more
do you think but for phil welch the
other two um
i busy and i forget is it pennington do
you think but for welch would these two
have
committed this type of crime personally
speaking and this is just my opinion i
don’t but for one second they would have
i think this was all phil i think phil
well following them strings and
you know phil welch had this borderline
cult leader complex
you know he he he had a spell over
people everyone i’ve ever talked to
has said from what you wrote just so you
know and what what i read and what i
looked into phil welch i would agree
that he
he was a cult-like figure who dominated
with control
it’s very similar to most of your cult
like or cult figures
he ruled in the same way with fear and
control and people were
totally subordinate to him so i think
that was a fair assessment
thank you for your right right and isn’t
it true that people still fear even cult
leaders when they pass as well
absolutely so it’s in doctrine yeah yeah
yeah i think
and it’s like they have ronnie music and
i think he was low in the totem pole i
think out of those three i i don’t
i mean he wasn’t anyone you know i
thought so too
i felt bad that he was the one they
wound up with to be honest
all right jack so i just have one final
question i could
clearly talk to you all day but it you
know just to respect your time we’re not
going to do that but
now that you have written
so now that you have written non-fiction
and you’ve also wrote um a very
successful fiction book prior to this do
you think you will
continue with fiction with nonfiction do
you think you’ll move
back and which is easier or more
enjoyable oh
gosh um so i think i i’ve said this
before i think both
genres satisfy different beasts in me um
fiction is very cathartic it’s about
getting my demons out it’s about purging
my
my emotions and getting all that [ __ ]
out on on paper it’s it’s it’s very
it’s for me and nobody else i’m not
writing for anyone
but myself with true crime and
and this is something i didn’t know
until after i was in it it’s not about
you anymore and i didn’t know that going
into it
and that you know i i had a swallow of
several slices of humble pie
but it stops being about you and it’s
about doing
something for somebody else something
bigger than yourself and
you don’t get the same things and
i don’t get to purge my my emotions and
my demons through true crime do you know
what i mean
but in fiction i don’t get to serve
something bigger than myself so
they’re very different for deaf for
different reasons and which one am i
going to return to i have no idea
i’m still i i am working on a true crime
we’ll see where that goes i suppose
you’ll have to let us know
i will definitely let you know trust me
as soon as i i’m allowed to i will
let the whole world know yeah jax i’d
love to read another true crime book i
really thought again the way you wrote this was
really you really honored the families
and the girls in a way that
really makes you um a superb writer and
you know just a compassionate person
so thank you so much for your work i
appreciate that
thank you we’ve definitely read some
true crime books that
are that really are um quite hideous the
way they report the story
and how they don’t do justice to the
victims right would you agree megan i
certainly agree i think that’s why we
that’s why we haven’t had many authors
on our podcast have we
no i think jack’s probably said it best
when she started out she said i’m a
woman and i’m a woman who writes about crime
and maybe bringing those two together
you found a winning formula so jack
thank you so much it’s such a pleasure
to talk to you
and i hope that um we keep in touch
please let us know for sure
your next project we look forward to it
thank you so much i really appreciate it
[Music]
sources for today’s episode includes
hell in the heartland by jax miller, unsolved mysteries, oxygen and the washington post