Cyntoia Brown

Episode Transcript

The below text transcription was is intended for audience reference and search purposes. Because it is generated automatically by computer, please forgive mis-translations, spelling and the lack of really any structured grammar.

At just 16 years old Cyntoia Brown was arrested
for the murder of year old Johnny
Allen Santa was sentenced to life in
prison after years of advocacy she was
granted clemency and released from
prison why would a young girl commit
such an act and what led to Cyntoia’s
eventual freedom

[Music]

This is episode 16 the Cyntoia Brown
story

Hey Amy it’s good to see you hi Megan
welcome back everyone to women in crime
I’m looking at Amy I’m looking at her
through zoom so forgive us again if the
audio is just a tiny bit different but
we’re definitely doing our best to get
you good quality here so I have Mike I
have my kids locked in the basement so
we should be fine amy has to record from
her closet she’s literally hiding in her
bedroom closet from everyone just to get
this done so Amy you want to announce
some of our patrons our new patrons sure
I first want to say a big thank you to
angel from Illinois Thank You angel
thank you and I would also like to give
a big shout out to Jennifer R from Metro
Detroit thank you so much for your
support thank you guys really appreciate
it like seriously
and again thank you for the questions
and emails we love it and McKay’s
suggestions yeah they have been awesome
oh my gosh the case suggestions are
awesome but I have a list now that’s
gonna cover us literally through
probably next year if I just UK
suggestions so stop writing us with
great cases no I’m kidding all right so
we have a couple more patrons who else
do we have we have CIN from Finland how
cool is that
I love the name and I love where she’s
from
awesome thank you so much I know all the
way from Finland I’m really really like
a really really grateful really dig that
and we have two more patrons who have
questions so this one shout-out to Steph
from Ontario Thank You Steph Thank You
Steph and her question is how long have
you been doing this or something similar
and I’m not sure if she means podcasting
or in the criminal justice field so I’ll
just say that we’ve been podcasting now
for oh boy what about a year and a half
two years direct appeal one year
anniversary is actually tomorrow which
is what did they are we recording
tomorrow May th mmm a one-year
anniversary thank that’s about right May
th May th or th yeah okay so but we
actually started working on it a good
year year and a half in advance so
actually working on you know all of this
together three years as for being in the
field of criminology and criminal
justice
whoo so let’s see for me it probably
started with the master’s degree and
that was that was for me right
after the Masters I went into probation
and then back to school for the PhD and
since then so for me yep Amy I want
to say for me about a year later I
did not go back to graduate school till
but I was working in the field with
alcohol and substance abuse which you
can’t talk about that without talking
about the criminal justice system so the
world started to intertwine around then
so yeah we’re looking at what how many
years is that oh my gosh first of all
the math scared me though I’m like wow I
never think it’s gonna be like a long
time I always think it’s like still like
around you know seven or eight years and
then I’m like no it’s actually closer to
okay so that answers
Steph’s question and we have a second
question Allison from North Carolina
Thank You Allison thanks Allison and
here’s her question which I love which
case either solved or unsolved sticks
with you the most do you want to take
this one first or you want me to geez
this changes for me all the time my I
think my I’m gonna have to go with Nora
Jackson case right remember we covered
Nora Jackson that was one of the first
cases I covered for women in crime and
she was wrongfully convicted or she was
exonerated for the murder of her mother
and you know some people believe she’s
in fact guilty either way the case is
unsolved and there’s just so many
questions yeah I remember you saying
that once before about that case and I
totally understand why that sticks with
you for me there’s I’m gonna go ahead
and say to a simple if you listen to
direct appeal I’m sorry but I’m just so
stuck on Melanie McGuire because we
spent so much time and I would just love
to know what actually really happened to
bill McGuire no matter what and who no
matter who’s guilty or involved my
second one though that I just I think
about all the time still is JonBenet I
knew you were gonna say that
because I literally it’s like JonBenet
every day I think about this case all
the time and I would
absolutely like I’d probably give
something big just to know what happened
to her as well so those are our two
cases thank you for your questions we
really look forward to your emails and
case suggestions and all future contact
so we hope you enjoy today’s episode
totally psyched for this one and I just
want to let everyone know that this was
actually in the works before we found
out about the Netflix documentary so
believe it or not this isn’t you know us
going oh boy we need to jump on this
Amy’s been working on this for some time
now so just let everyone know that this
is a case that you’ve been interested in
for a really long time so absolutely and
we actually had two listeners who
suggested this case while I was in the
process of writing the story and then
like you said the Netflix documentary
came out at first I was annoyed because
I didn’t want people to think I was just
jumping on you know their coattails but
then I was actually really happy because
it helped me see so much footage of the
original trial the appellate hearing it
helped me put faces to names so it was
actually really good that’s awesome
and it was really good to see Cyntoia
herself because obviously we know you
can’t judge people by their reactions or
their effect but it was very powerful
did you see the documentary I purposely
didn’t watch it yet because I wanted to
wait for this episode and I don’t know
everything and I wanted to learn about
it here good well make sure you watch it
because I will I mean I’ll give you my
opinion on it later but you should watch
it yep so Cynthia Brown who now goes by
his Cyntoia Brown long she was born on
January th
in Fort Campbell Kentucky and very
soon after she moved with her mother to
Tennessee so unfortunately she had a
rough life from day one she never knew
her father her birth mom Georgina
Mitchell who was actually a teenager at
the time of Cynthia’s birth she drank
throughout the pregnancy and she talked
about drinking a fifth of vodka a day
the whole time that she was pregnant
with Cyntoia some sources say she also
used crack cocaine she lived on the
streets at time she had a pretty long
rap sheet she has a very strong history
of suicidal ideation
in fact that whole family the maternal
grandmother as well has a similar
history so unfortunately she started off
having you know these biological markers
for a few these different issues so
shortly after birth
sento has spent time in many different
households and even on the street before
she was finally adopted by Ella net and
Thomas Brown so she was just years old
when they officially adopted her but she
actually had been staying with the
family since she was about months old
so what happened was Ella net knew
Georgina and Regina had asked Ella net
to watch the baby for her and it was one
of those situations where she just never
came back gotcha but luckily for Cyntoia
the brown household was a very stable
one very loving there are some sources
that say she had some issues with her
stepfather her stepfather Frank her
parents would eventually get divorced
but either way you know it was a good
family she got very lucky the Browns had
two older children as well
Cyntoia had a good relationship with
them they both were already at a house
when Cyntoia
got there okay in her memoir Cyntoia
recounts the closeness she had with her
mother her father was a truck driver so
he was on the road a lot and her and her
mom were very close again the two older
siblings were out of the house and
sentai did very well in elementary
school she was even placed in a program
for gifted children she was extremely
intelligent so things were going well
for her academically but she was often
taunted for being quote/unquote a white
girl he was biracial her mother was
Caucasian and her father was
african-american and as you’ll see if
you look up pictures Cyntoia is
light-skinned and her two adoptive
parents had much darker skin than she
did and children were not very nice
about that okay she says she never felt
like she belonged and while her mother
was extremely loving she often felt very
alone and isolated unfortunately she
started getting in trouble at a very
young age for example one time she threw
a rock at her neighbor’s granddaughter
and it hit her in the head
sento says it was just part of a game
she did not mean to hurt anyone you know
this just shows poor impulse control she
would vandalize property again not
meaning to do harm she would often feel
guilty afterwards couldn’t understand
why she would do these things low level
thefts you know I’m talking under
years old at this point okay
I was about to ask the Aged thank you so
as you could imagine you know she was
already ostracized because of her skin
color but now people started looking at
her as a bad kid and she was really
quickly labeled as a disruptive kid who
you know nobody really liked her
unfortunately and we know the effects
labeling has you know we talked about
this all the time in our classes once a
kid labeled they begin to fulfill the
label yeah and as we’ll see what’s
Cyntoia she was labeled very early on not
only because of the way she was acting
but because of her mother Cynthia’s
adopted father would say you know you’re
just like your mom you’re nothing you
know so she was she already had this
label that you’re gonna turn out to be
just like your mother got it in second
grade she was kicked out of that gifted
program that I had mentioned before for
a disrupting class and for disrespecting
her teacher of course her parents were
extremely upset about this so it seems
as though this was really when things
started to spiral for her she returned
to regular classes and you know she felt
judged and even more removed from
everyone as she had felt before she
started stealing more and one time she
brought nodos to school do you know what
nodos is oh that sounds so from is that
thus the sleeping pills or no it’s it’s
actually caffeine pills and there I’m in
yeah right she had stolen them from her
brother’s truck I don’t even think she
meant to do any harm
but of course it’s contraband in school
right and she got expelled ooh yeah yeah
she got expelled you know she was
already you know the school already
wasn’t happy with her actions so I think
they were happy to get rid of her got it
so it was at this time that her parent
enrolled her in an alternative school so
as it often does this experience did the
opposite of what its intent was instead
of turning her life around she started
hanging out with kids who did far worse
things than she had ever done oh I see
okay
gotcha so now we get into differential
Association theory our students love
this one right yep okay little bit
little bit of social learning theory
she’s around other people learning
certain behaviors and she’s very young
at this point while she’s at this
alternative school she gets arrested for
assault after getting to a fight with
one of her friends mothers she was sent
to a juvenile facility she was ordered
to undergo a psych evaluation
Jews also sent to a psych facility for
juveniles and unfortunately she also
made some new friends and picked up some
new skills at this facility as well this
is why they say that prisons and other
detention centers are breeding grounds
for crime yep especially when you’re
putting kids when they’re you know
years old so when she was released
they tried to put her back into middle
school but at this point she doesn’t
belong you know she’s placed in a
behavior modification program we know
what those can do she was with children
who suffered from mental and
developmental delays so Gover let’s go
right back to labeling she didn’t she
didn’t feel like she belonged and now
she was in a gifted program now she’s in
behavior modification we can see what’s
going on here so not surprisingly she
had an altercation with a teacher and
once again she was sent to juvie and she
was officially under the custody of the
Department of Children’s Services do you
know how old she is at this point yeah
she’s only okay so you know this is
not a good start for her so once again
she’s in a facility surrounded by people
and a lot of the people she’s surrounded
by are much older than her
and she’s a baby she’s years old and
she’s with even year olds much
higher security lots of fights she tried
to escape several times every time she
escaped she got caught sent back alright
so after two years in custody she was
finally released back to her family
except when she gets home she has told
that her father left okay so it’s just
her mother is what you’re saying at that
point actually I think she would have
preferred that there was a new man in
the picture so her mother had a new
boyfriend named Frank and she did not
get along with him now we’re looking at
strain theory right this actually is a
great case Megan to teach in our Theory
classes because there is so much going
on here right Amy and for people who
don’t know strain theory is often about
the stress and frustration that people
face and in lieu of strong coping
mechanisms they will act out in deviant
or criminal ways ways that they would
offend oftentimes this relates to people
who face blocked opportunities and
offend for financial purposes but when
talking about sento a stepfather here
we’re talking about strain theory in
that people
I will sometimes react in a negative way
when they experience something they
really really don’t want and so we teach
that often in forms of abuse a
stepfather who doesn’t treat you well
that would certainly fit the mold here
exactly and you haven’t even heard the
half of it yet Cyntoia enrolled back
in school because she had no choice she
was a minor her mother said you’re going
back to school right it did not take
long for her to stop going and she
started hanging out with some older kids
that she had met when she was away and
they pretty much spent every day getting
high so she would pretend she’s going to
school and instead of going to school
she would just go smoke the whole day
and of course her mom eventually found
out and she was not very happy right
of course her mom said you can’t do this
and she said okay well then I’m going to
leave and she ran away from home okay so
at this time she’s about years old
and she runs away to stay with some of
her friends that she had met who are in
their s they started just smoking weed
every day some petty theft and quickly
escalated into selling crack over the
course of a year or so she would go home
run away and start selling drugs and
then she would go home again and leave
and it would go back and forth and this
isn’t surprising because she was a child
she would get scared when she was living
life on the streets she loved her mother
she would go home to her mom she would
feel safe but unfortunately the streets
kept calling her back
[Music]
I have to say now more than ever I
realize it’s definitely important to try
to eat right but I don’t really want to
sacrifice tasty foods to have to do so
with daily harvest I don’t have to give
up either daily harvest delivers
delicious clean food right to your door
they’re easy to prepare and until you’re
ready to eat them you should put them in
the freezer and then when you are ready
you can pop any one of these meals out
on their own and prepare them within a
couple of minutes they’re really making
something for everyone and for all times
of the day which is really great and so
for like a smoothie I don’t usually make
smoothies because I always find it’s a
pain to chop everything and prepare it
but you know daily harvest is giving you
a smoothie that’s pre-prepared all you
need to do is dump it into the blender
put a little bit of milk or other liquid
in it blend it up and you’re good to go
within two minutes so I find that the
ease is one of the best parts they also
have a dessert option which you know I
must say I have a sweet tooth and they
had the did you try the little nibs yeah
so yummy they were delicious didn’t you
tell me also that your kids liked those
yes I told them it was cookie dough and
they believed me but they’re delicious
and they have all again the whole foods
you know the vegetables the fruits and I
felt like I was winning when my kids
were eating that and they thought it was
a dessert which it is a dessert it’s
just not your typical dessert it was
delicious
so that’s great they’re making delicious
foods that even your kids are excited to
eat I love it good food easy to prepare
easy to maintain environmentally
responsible we really hope that you will
consider trying daily harvest and that
you love it as much as we do go to daily
harvest comm and enter the promo code
women to get $ off of your first box
so again that’s promo code women WOM en
for $ off your first box at daily
harvest com
this crisis has reminded us that we are
all vulnerable and that it’s okay to
reach out for support and I don’t know
about you but while I’m doing whatever I
can to take care of my physical health
I’m realizing that taking care of my
mental health is equally important in
honor of mental health month talk space
online therapy is committed to fostering
a globe
community around the importance of
mental health this mental health
awareness month with talk space you can
connect with a licensed therapist to
talk it all out all from the safety of
your home so you can send your therapist
a text you could talk on the phone you
could do a picture or video message and
this is / as much as you need to talk
space matches you with a licensed
therapist based on your specific needs
and preferences so for example if you
need somebody that specializes as
anxiety or depression or relationship
issues there are over specialties in
which you can choose from once you’re
matched with a qualified therapist you
can begin therapy the very same day the
bottom line here is that you deserve
support and you don’t have to struggle
on your own your talk space therapist
can be your dedicated support system
there to help you feel healthier and
more empowered even in these uncertain
times as a listener of this podcast you
can get a hundred dollars off your first
month on talk space to match with your
perfect therapist go to talk space calm
or download the app make sure to use the
code women and crime that’s one word
women and crime to get $ off your
first month and show your support for
the show
it’s an hour show notes that’s women in
crime and talk space calm
while she was on the streets and I say
on the streets because she was between
houses living with people that didn’t
have her best interests you know she was
brutally raped on a few occasions and it
was around this time that she met a guy
named cutthroat cutthroat okay believe
it or not that was not his given birth
name cutthroat okay oh that’s even
better
okay his name was actually Gary and
mcLaughlin okay so you see that I guess
what was his name was Gary in magoffin
okay and she fell for him fast she said
that he was the first person that ever
listened to her and she really felt like
he was the one she really was into this
guy and he was also in his mid-s along
with the other people she was hanging
around with she very quickly moved in
with him no he did not have a house they
lived in hotels very shortly after the
honeymoon stage was over she looked at
him as a boyfriend but he started
forcing her to have sex with him he
taught her how to be quote/unquote a
good slut and he abused her horribly
both physically and sexually and
degraded her
I can’t even repeat some of the things I
read what he did to her she said she
didn’t bother trying to leave this is
not surprising she felt cared for for
the first time in her life because
although he was brutalizing her the
other side of that was him also loving
her or pretending to love her or showing
her some sort of love that she had never
felt before and because he started off
differently didn’t you know they don’t
start off with the brutalization he
starts off with all the good stuff and
then by the time she’s hooked into this
relationship and in love that’s when an
you know you would be surprised it took
maybe days weeks this moved pretty
quickly but I think unfortunately
Cyntoia had such a poor self-image
already that it didn’t take long he
often called her his bitch and she says
in her memoir while she knows that is a
degrading term and made her feel like
she belonged to somebody and it made her
feel really special so that’s very sad
she’s a child yeah that’s tellin ya a
few days after they were getting settled
in their you know their hotel cut said
she needed to start earning her keep so
unfortunately what do you think this
means I
when you were saying it before
describing him I’m like he’s definitely
gonna try to prostitute her out so I
assume that means he wanted her to
prostitute herself he was grooming her
from day one right right so at first she
just pretended to be a sex worker and
she would basically take money from men
up front and then leave so in other
words she would rob men and she felt
like this was a way that she didn’t have
to exploit herself but she can also give
cut what he wanted unfortunately it
wasn’t long before she actually started
having sex for money she says in her
memoir that she started to accept the
reality that she was a slut as cut has
been telling her all along so this is
really sad so she with labeling right
you eventually become it’s a
self-fulfilling prophecy it is that’s
exactly what happened here and she’s
defeated cut would bring over men and
forced her to have sex with him and then
he would just take the money so in other
words he was her pimp yeah right
although at the time since Oya did not
realize that she thought she was helping
them live a life together because of
course cut mates Cyntoia believed that
this was all just temporary
and once they got enough money they
would move to Vegas and live happily
ever after
oh sure so one night after being almost
strangled to death by could let me just
tell you why she was almost strangled to
death he was pissed because she was not
bringing in enough money so he choked
her and in fact almost killed her so she
went out to find the client the evening
of August th Cyntoia headed over
to the local sonic in Nashville to try
to get some business a gentleman stopped
his car asked her if she was doing okay
and she started chatting with this man
who turned out to be year old Johnny
Michael Allen so Johnny Michael Allen
was a local real estate agent he was
also a youth pastor and a sunday-school
teacher
Wow oh I’m sorry and he was also an army
vet so he sounds like a pretty good guy
right yeah I mean he’s going to be a
very sympathetic victim here – yeah
we’ll get to that okay so at first he
seemed nice he asked her questions
instead of just saying you know how much
he asked her you know how she was if she
was hungry he brought her food they went
back and forth on how much for some toys
okay I’m sorry so he’s a client
I thought you mean he was just a
concerned pastor who was stopping to
help her I’m curious to see where you’re
gonna go with this
all right yeah I’ll hold that question
okay so they decided on $ for her
services he suggested they go to her
house she did not feel comfortable with
that she wanted to go to a hotel room as
she normally did to conduct her business
but she thought he seemed nice so she
gave in they ate their sonic they went
to his home he showed her around the
house making sure to stop to show her
his gun collection which included two
shotguns and a handgun she said she
started to feel nervous I think she
realized nobody knew where she was okay
and she was at this random person’s
house and he has this gun collection and
she thought he was acting strange so she
asked if she could watch TV and relax a
little she claims is because she wanted
to be closer to the door which was
downstairs by the television set okay
she said he talked a lot about his guns
and about how important he was in the
community she asked if she could take a
shower and when she got out of the
shower he was in bed waiting for her
naked so obviously she was there for a
reason and she knew that but she did not
feel comfortable so she said she wanted
to take a little nap and she pretended
that she was sleeping of course to avoid
having sex with him at that moment
according to Cyntoia at this point he
grabbed her very hard between the legs
and kept bothering her and then he
turned seemingly reaching for something
she assumed he was reaching for a gun so
she grabbed the gun out of her purse and
shot him in the back of the head so why
should does she have a gun well could
always gave her a gun for safety all
right because we know that unfortunately
sex workers are often assaulted yes
after shooting him in the back of the
head she stole a hundred seventy two
dollars from his wallet she took two of
his firearms and fled the scene in his
truck any questions I mean right now
this is bad I see how this is gonna play
out really bad for her at this point
yeah but I think you pretty much solved
the issue of what uh what was the
purpose of their exchange that was my
initial yes exactly but you know I think
like you mentioned who the victim was of
course is always important in every case
she immediately goes back to the hotel
room and tells cut what happened
she told cut I shot this guy and I took
his truck cut was of course pissed why
the hell did you bring the stolen truck
here go get rid of it she drops it off
at a local Walmart hitches a ride back
to the hotel she claims she had no clue
if this guy was even dead
she says the reason she took the guns
and the money and the car was because
she was afraid he was still alive and
she wanted to get out of there fast so
she actually found out he died by
watching the news and it was interesting
she said that after this that cut was so
much nicer to her and she felt like she
really earned his respect so although he
wasn’t happy because that might make
things more difficult for him she really
felt like she she was in his good graces
now maybe he was scared of her
maybe so their plan was to move hotel
the next morning but unfortunately or
fortunately depending how you look at it
they got woken up by the police barging
in with guns
Centaurus first response was don’t touch
cut he didn’t do anything let him go
this just shows what we often see by
women who were abused well not even
women she was a child
right she’s trying to protect him even
though he was the one who has been
brutalizing her she also says all along
that she was never worried about getting
in trouble because she believed that she
was defending her life so her number one
concern was just making sure that cut
did not get in trouble it also shows you
her you know and for the emotional
immaturity of someone who’s so young and
who gets arrested exactly I think that’s
a very good point it does show us her
frame of mind at the time she tells
police she is although at the time
she was just at first they believed
her so they did not call her parents
because she was not considered a minor
mm-hmm but not surprisingly they’re the
police and it did not take them long to
figure out that she was in fact a minor
and apparently they were extremely
pissed off when they found out that she
had lied to them so they take her in for
an interrogation and one of my favorite
things about this case is there’s
footage of everything you can see
footage of the interrogation there was
actually a documentary filmmaker who
started following centaurs case very
early on we’ll talk about that later on
but I just want to urge everyone to look
up some of this stuff
Amy sorry before you go on when she was
taken into the interrogation room did
they know her age was she taken in or I
guess my question is was she taken in
alone and did they question her okay yes
so she waived her Miranda rights
remember she was only she was very
tired this was about : a.m. and she
was high so this is a situation where
somebody who’s underage
under the influence and tired they are
in no position to be interrogated at
that point let alone the fact that she
had no attorney or parent this is not
surprising because we know that the
numbers are a percent of juveniles
end up speaking to police without an
attorney or parent present right so of
course I was not surprised to hear that
they promised her leniency if she talked
they told her she is of her life she
might go in for years but if you know
she talks to them then they could catch
her a deal but they’re allowed to say
these things right right well the police
are allowed to lie to suspects in an
interrogation room in the United States
so the big question in this case from
early on was whether she should say in
juvenile court or be transferred up to
adult court if she was transferred to
adult court she’d be facing mandatory
life because in Tennessee with a first
degree murder charge that’s what the
sentence was so she had to have what is
known as a transfer hearing and that’s
when the judge would decide whether or
not they’re gonna waive her case up in
preparation for the hearing she actually
met her birth mom for the first time Wow
which I thought was pretty interesting
yeah any idea why she why her birth mom
was even included here I would imagine
it’s because they’re trying to make a
case to keep her in juvenile court and
her situation her background being so
bad that it would kind of mitigate her
responsibility and keep her there yeah
% right so there they had called on
her birth mom to testify as to her own
issues to show this biological link and
also to testify to the fact that she
drank every day during pregnancy I think
since Oya on some level felt that her
mom was you know helping her out so I
thought that was the right thing to do
really what her legal team had to do was
they had to show that Cyntoia had issues
that could be addressed in a juvenile
facility and that she would be able to
be rehabilitated and be a productive
member of society the prosecution of
course was arguing that she should be
transferred to adult court because from
early on the prosecution claimed that
she shot him while he was asleep but you
know what they never touched on
self-defense
even worse they never touched on the
fact that a year old man was picking
up a teenager for sex so I want to stop
and point out the fact that Cyntoia
was never portrayed as a victim in this
scenario she was described as a teenage
prostitute
not a victim of sex trafficking although
I do want to say later on this
would be acknowledged but at the time of
the crime that’s to me that’s the
biggest problem in this case is that
nobody looked at her as the victim that
often happens unfortunately too with sex
workers you know as that they’re
criminalized
as opposed to being seen as one of the
most victimized groups not to mention
she was under the age of consent that’s
not a defense but I’m sure that the our
counter-argument would have been she
said she was older it could have been
free just not it doesn’t matter it
actually doesn’t negate statutory but I
was just pointing it out yeah that’s a
good point two weeks after the hearing a
judge decided that he would in fact
transfer her to adult court so this
meant that she was facing a potential
life sentence if she had been tried as a
juvenile the max would have been about
eight years Wow oh this is a very
important decision in this case she was
immediately transferred to an adult
facility to await trial but since she
was a juvenile they did keep her
separate from adults until she turned
and it is interesting she does say that
it was actually nice to be kept in
really an isolation because it was quiet
and no one bothered her so she says it
wasn’t that bad okay well of course at
first until the days turned into weeks
turned into months and she started you
know it started affecting her mental
capabilities right it was all so sorry I
just want to point out around this time
she read in the paper that cut was
murdered he was murdered do we know by
who it was some sort of drug deal gone
bad and she talks about how she was very
devastated at the time remember she was
she’s still young here she this is her
first boyfriend her first love but she
does realize later on that if she never
got arrested she probably would have
still been with him and she’d probably
be dead too right all right let’s move
on to the trial now August st was
the start of the criminal trial so at
this point Cynthia was years old and
she had already been incarcerated for
two years as I mentioned there’s a lot
of this footage in the Netflix
documentary you know you can really see
the opening arguments and how hysterical
Cyntoia is and I want to point out she
looks like a baby it’s really
heartbreaking Wow I’m gonna I mean I’m
definitely gonna check this out like
yeah right after we get off the sue
McCall yeah she’s it’s just it’s really
sad of course I do not think that she
had any right to murder someone and I
feel for the victim as well but when you
do watch this you do get to see just how
young she
actually is alright so there are a few
issues that I guess a few of the main
issues for the prosecution of course the
detectives took the stand who talked
about the interrogation something that
was I think wait a little more was the
medical examiner who took the stand
described the injury as immediate and
his hands were clasped so they were
saying clearly it was not self-defense
he was sleeping when he was shot
but a poor Hey but his hand being
classed I mean does it that does that
all right I don’t know why that
definitely indicates him being sleeping
but that’s fine I think they I think
they’re trying to say that since he died
immediately the placement of his hands
indicated how they were placed right
before he was shot got it but of course
there are experts that would probably
argue that as well but the defense they
didn’t argue they didn’t argue against
that strongly something else that worked
against there is her mom took the stand
and like I said her mom was you know a
really strong advocate for her you know
Cynthia had always said this was
self-defense but they had played an
audio tape you know they tape all
conversations one individual yes you
know incarcerated and it was a
conversation between her and her mom and
in the audio she says mom I killed him I
execute I that’s gonna work against her
for sure yeah so the prosecution was
saying this was a confession clearly she
never said mom me I did this because I
was defending myself but of course since
oil would say it’s just the words that I
use cuz I was feeling so guilty about
what I did because she showed remorse
early on and so the Dinis story was
really that she killed him so she could
rob him she never wanted to have sex
quit was putting the pressure on get me
some money so she knew the only way she
was getting money was to first kill him
and take his money so that that was
their narrative the defense consisted
mostly of people offering some sort of
explanation for why she turned out the
way she did so one doctor said that he
believed she had borderline personality
disorder others talked about her mother
and fetal alcohol syndrome Cyntoia not
surprisingly was advised not to take the
stand other than the fact that she was
very young and also she was impulsive
and displayed impulsive behavior at
times I think it’s also the fact that
she initially lied to the police okay
so it doesn’t look good for her that you
know she doesn’t have a good track
record early on with being honest
I was surprised it was a very short
trial is only five days is that it sure
it is but you know what we deal with the
atypical trials that go on for like you
know two months and that’s not really as
normal either for this type you know it
actually for this type of case now I
would say probably two weeks is more
normal or more typical yeah that’s what
I was thinking too and the jury only
deliberated for six hours also sure they
they don’t have a lot of they didn’t
have a lot of witnesses so it always
depends on the number of witnesses and
the jury deliberating for six hours seem
short to me I’ve heard of deliberations
and murder trials that lasted for
minutes and I’m shocked when I hear that
and I think six hours is also short yeah
I agree
so she was found guilty of first-degree
murder
felony murder and aggravated robbery oh
that’s that’s harsh
and unfortunately for her I don’t know
if you know this but Tennessee had the
harshest juvenile sentencing well one of
the harshest juvenile sentencing among
all the states but the juvenile
sentencing shouldn’t apply here right
because she’s in she was found guilty in
adult court sorry juveniles who are
tried as adults
oh okay god yeah sorry about that so her
sentence was to life which would make
her almost years old when she was
eligible for parole Wow just in time not
to collect Social Security two weeks
after the verdict she was transferred to
the Tennessee prison for women where she
was to serve out her sentence so she
would be transferred to a Memphis
facility at some point and then back to
Nashville but she was in the general
population because she was now
alright so in her book she talks a
little bit about how when she first got
to prison she acted tough right because
you’re what else can you do she’s also
still fairly young and she was not
necessarily on the right path she really
felt like there was no point because she
felt like she was gonna be there for the
rest of her life I think she was very
fortunate that she had a lawyer who was
also a friend to her and sat her down
one day and said if you ever want a
chance at a normal life you need to
pretty much get your shit together they
turned this stuff around Cyntoia says
that that really stuck with her and she
only started hanging out with people who
were doing the right thing well that’s
good so any of her friends who were you
know doing drugs and you know other
illegal activity in prison she kind of
dropped them
she only started hanging around with
people who were taking classes okay good
and she’s getting
sober now so I mean that’s a good thing
yep she also took every opportunity that
was offered to her so let me just tell
you what she did while she was
incarcerated I don’t want to give away
when she gets out but obviously we know
she gets out cuz I said it in the intro
but while she’s in there she earns her
GED she actually earned her GED in jail
she enrolled in a college program
through Lipscomb University which is
actually a Christian School in Tennessee
she actually took all inside-out classes
which is pretty cool inside out classes
Amy teaches inside out yes I am tell
people what inside-out is real quick
yeah sure so I’m a trained inside-out
instructor so basically that’s when you
take students from campus with you to
students who are incarcerated and you
have combined classes they are amazing
and actually as Cyntoia talks about it
she said she really felt seen she didn’t
feel judged that’s what’s so beautiful
about these classes is for a moment
I think the incarcerated students feel
normal yeah because they’re with their
peers yep right so she finished two
bachelor’s degrees she was very focused
on her studies she enrolled in a
culinary arts program she mentored
at-risk youths she even took part in a
puppy training program oh that’s so
great I really did a lot okay yeah I
don’t you know I don’t want to paint it
all rosy here because she did have
trouble while incarcerated you know she
she did have a lot of issues off and on
but she always bounced back and she was
given second chances by a lot of people
who really believed in her people saw
her true colors and really helped her
out she was fortunate that way very
fortunate so although things seemed like
they were going okay in prison she was
really having no luck on the legal front
she lost her first appeal so as we know
the first appeal really focuses on
errors at trial mm-hmm her second appeal
focused on new evidence that suggested
that she had a cognitive impairment due
to the fact that her mother drank while
pregnant with her so although she was
very smart remember she was in the
gifted program as a child right she
actually had an IQ of which is quite
high oh yeah so nobody could deny that
she was brilliant but she had very poor
impulse control as we see throughout her
life on November she had an
appellate hearing asking for a new trial
so this hearing focused on fetal alcohol
spectrum disorder which you know affects
your response
and lowers impulse control and her legal
team claimed that she did not act the
way someone with such a high
intelligence would act they said her
functional abilities were equivalent to
a person with mild retardation Wow not
my word their word got it obviously that
is a horrible term that is no longer
used but at the time it was still being
used understood they really focus on
this discrepancy between her behavior
and her IQ her lawyers also brought up a
recent case of Miller versus Alabama oh
yeah I know that case I teach them I was
gonna say Megan do you know that case
it’s a big way up teach it in my classes
so Miller versus Alabama in this
was a Supreme Court case that says you
cannot sentence a juvenile indefinitely
to life without parole
in other words there has to be some sort
of individualized sentencing hearing
which it was such a huge case right but
you know what Tennessee prosecutor said
well they said well Brown was not
technically given a life without parole
sentence because she would be eligible
for parole after years so they found
that loophole I was gonna say that too I
figured that was coming yep she was
really out of options here so her case
started very lucky for her her case
started a sparking public interest so in
there was the documentary called me
facing life have you seen that one no it
was PBS okay so this was actually made
by the same director as the Netflix
documentary and it showed her case and
it caught people’s attention she started
receiving tons of letters offering
support and friendship and actually one
of those letters this is a side note
here one of those letters were was from
Jamie long a local musician who has now
her husband oh wow yeah basically he
wrote her and said quote God told me to
tell you that you’re getting out of
prison and then eventually he flew from
Texas to Tennessee to visit her and you
know eventually they fall in love but
before we get to the good stuff let’s go
back to you know what is going on here
so Cyntoia and her legal team were busy
strategizing so her last federal appeal
had been denied she was really out of
options and any idea what her only hope
was clemency yes okay who’s gonna say
clemency a pardon I don’t know
okay yep our only hope was to be granted
clemency by the governor so her legal
team would ask if her sentence could be
commuted to second-degree murder and
with time served she would be free so
yes she would be a convicted murderer
still but Alicia would be home her
chances were not great because they
found that less than % of clemency
petitions were granted in Tennessee
during the prior decade yeah okay so
remember I’m saying at the time of her
sentencing Brown was labeled a teenage
prostitute yes well perception had
finally changed in November in
Tennessee anyone who is or younger
cannot be charged with prostitution they
are simply too young to consent agreed
yes and said Tennessee law rightfully
defines any minor who performs a
commercial sex act as a victim of sex
trafficking absolutely agree finally
finally so some say this change was
actually partially inspired by Cyntoia
story I mean the me movement was also
gaining momentum around here so I think
there was just like a lot of you know a
lot of things going on that might have
you know helped move that forward during
this time between the new Tennessee law
and Cyntoia’s documentary the local
news station aired her story and it
quickly went viral I don’t know if you
recall this I somewhat recall yes

#FreeCyntoia Brown yes had over

like two million reshares
kim kardashian rihanna TI snoop dogg
lebron james all of these famous people
started tweeting for clemency for
Cyntoia
yeah I remember them okay yeah and so
this is really I think what happened was
again a black lives matter and meaty
movement this was just such a strong
example of how the criminal justice
system punished people of color who were
in fact victims themselves so I think
that’s why it stirred up so much support
it’s like the perfect storm for it
exactly I even wrote perfect storm Oh
twins okay her legal team started
heavily pursuing the Governor Bill
Haslam at this time and they filed a
petition for her clemency tons of people
vouched for her and wrote letters all
over the national media I don’t know if
you recall Megan but you know GMA Today
Show Inside Edition I do remember the
media storm here yeah
just to give some information about
clemency before the governor will take
any action he had asked for the opinion
of the parole board so her legal team
started prepping to go before them and
sent Oya essentially had to plea for her
life to the parole board the main
purpose was really for them to show that
she had been rehabilitated since her
initial arrest and that she would no
longer be a threat to society and in
fact would be a productive member of
society okay and again they were asking
for her sentence to be commuted to
second-degree murder may rd was
the parole hearing and Cynthia’s last
plea for freedom after years
incarcerated the hearing was videotaped
again you can see it if you look it up
the panel interestingly or maybe not
interestingly but the panel was mostly
white men and two white women many
people testified speaking mostly about
her transformation over the years she
also spoke and showed remorse asked for
mercy very heartfelt the victim’s friend
and the original detective on the case
of course spoke as well as we know at
parole hearings of course the victim has
to have a voice right
Cynthia’s birth mom was there as well
I’m actually wearing a shirt that said
good vibes only which I thought was cute
it’s that is really cute um question was
her adoptive mother also president all
these hearings and yes okay yeah she was
her strongest advocate sugar you know
went to visit her every weekend yeah
okay and actually her older sister Missy
as well was a very strong advocate okay
so what happens the board ended up
divided so to recommended that the
request be granted to full out denied it
and to recommended that her sentence be
lowered to years which would mean
that she would still have another
years to serve ooh what happens when
they’re divided like that I should know
this off him but I don’t yeah well there
are state differences so don’t be so
hard on yourself in care so basically in
Tennessee the governor’s just asking for
their input but he could do whatever he
wants oh right okay he was just so it’s
just it’s just advisory got it
strictly yeah of course so she waited
anxiously again this was in May
it wasn’t until his last day in office
on June th that the governor made
his final decision he called in the
legal team for a private meeting and
said he will commute her sentence the
fifteen years Wow so this was so this
would mean that she had only seven more
months to serve and the majority of
those seven months would be served in a
transitional part of the prison Wow and
I’m sorry and also she would be on
parole for ten years that makes sense
yeah so yeah this was this was huge huge
her and Jamie actually got married over
the phone shortly after they got the
news not just very cute and you wanna
hear something so romantic
Jamie had already moved to Nashville
remember he lived in Texas he moved
there just in anticipation of this
happening he he had such a strong faith
in God and really believed that this was
going to work so he uprooted his life
and moved there believing that she was
going to be coming home sounds like true
love to me right I wish I was that
optimistic right so on August th
after serving years year-old
Cyntoia Brown
oh now Cyntoia brown long walked free
and she will be on parole until the year
so I know this was a long episode I
am almost done I just want to give you a
quick update okay about where is Cynthia
now okay okay so Cynthia lives in
Nashville with her husband Jamie since
her release she has gone on a national
speaking tour and she says she’s
contemplating law school and would like
to start a family she’s super young
still so she has a whole life ahead of
her just thinking about so as I
mentioned a couple a lot of times during
this episode I mentioned Santoro’s
memoir so since being released from
prison she published the book called
free Cyntoia my search for redemption in
the American prison system so the
memoirs mostly features writing that she
put together while she was incarcerated
and it really shows the experiences of a
young person who is essentially being
brought up in America’s prison system
for over a decade
it is brutally honest she talks about
the good the bad the ugly she does not
sugarcoat things and I found that I
really respected that because of course
she wants people to see her in a certain
light but she holds nothing back does
she talk about her crime as well and she
still I just want to ask does she still
maintain the same story that she felt
that he was going to pull a gun on her
or so she felt in danger okay
she doesn’t she actually surprisingly
she doesn’t the crime has such a small
part of the book it’s very interesting
the book I’d say the crime is like five
pages have a page well I just
wondered if she’s still domain to get
her story yep she goes see glosses over
it but yes so she’s now really committed
to exposing the in justices in the
system and she is committed to working
you know to help others
so this Netflix documentary well did you
know that Cyntoia did not even know
about it
Netflix did not work with her on it how
is that possible did they want to or I
don’t get it so remember I mentioned the
gentleman who did the earlier
documentary the PBS documentary yes so
he was a he had old footage he sold it
he very much made a deal he made a deal
with Netflix so according to Brown who
again Brown long she says that this was
an unauthorized documentary and that her
husband and her were surprised when they
first heard the news because they did
not participate in any way I don’t
understand that why they wouldn’t even
ask for the participation first like why
not at least ask and then okay they
turned you down then you know we have
this footage I don’t know I really don’t
know but you know she says she’s
currently in the process of sharing her
story in the right way in full detail
okay and you know she does say quote
that she prays that this film highlights
things wrong in our justice system but I
did have nothing to do with this
documentary okay
well I don’t want to ruin the
documentary for you but I think she
might be disappointed with the
documentary okay got it let’s not go the
documentary yeah in case listeners
haven’t yeah I don’t want to ruin it for
anyone but my opinion and opinion of
others is that the film’s really failed
to grapple with some of the larger
criminal justice issues okay so it’s
really focused on her personal path to I
guess we could say Redemption right and
a lot of footage from you know when she
was just the child when this all
happened you know but you know the film
ignores many of the systemic issues and
the racial dynamics in our system it
doesn’t even touch on the fact that race
might have played in her case and I
think that was kind of a huge mess and
I’m wondering I haven’t heard Cynthia’s
statement
on the actual documentary if she’s gonna
give one but I’d be curious to see what
she says about that oh I’d be very
curious as soon as I see it so Megan
thank you for being so patient and such
a good listener but what are your
thoughts here I mean it’s such a good
story and I was really excited for you
to tell it my thoughts here are that I
wouldn’t I wouldn’t guess that sinto a
premeditated the crime and I would guess
that after being a sex worker for so
long that she probably was fearful in a
lot of instances and you know she went
back to this guy’s house and it probably
was a mistake I I mean my ultimate
opinion is that she was you know a child
who was victimized she committed a very
adult act and that’s what people look at
well she shot a man in the back of the
head yeah but you have to look at a
year old who’s come from you know just
had a really bad series of events in her
life so I think that my opinion was that
she definitely should have been tried in
the juvenile system I think that might
have been more appropriate that being
said it does seem that I could be wrong
because it does seem that her having
served years in prison and under the
circumstances she did led to her reform
so perhaps that was the appropriate I do
not believe that a -year sentence was
appropriate at all but perhaps the one
she got was just the one she needed I
think that’s a great point and similar
to my conclusion as well I think that
the big miss here is that she should
have never been transferred to adult
court sorry
definitely not first-degree murder you
know I can’t I don’t think you could say
this was premeditated at all maybe a
crime of passion if you’re gonna try her
as an adult at the very least it should
have been a second-degree murder charge
but I also believe that the system
failed her from a young age right and it
just kept family oh there’s systemic
failure that we see and also it’s I
really what one thing I appreciated is
the changes that happen to treat you
know children who become you know forced
sort of sex workers to treat them as
victims I was really glad to hear that
that’s a really positive change in the
system yeah I wish it was the case you
know across the entire system but it
feels like we’re moving in that
direction I agree and I think probably
sin toy
would feel that this wasn’t in vain
because so much good has come out of
this on a policy level and she does you
know now do a lot of work for criminal
justice reform so I think she would feel
the same way and I think it’s also
important to think you know when we talk
about juveniles who commit crimes and
whether or not they should be
transferred up it’s really you need to
look at the circumstances and no one
ever really spent time looking at why
she was in the situation she was in and
again the fact that she was also a
victim well we look forward to seeing
what Cyntoia does with her future
hopefully she is paving the way for some
more positive change thank you so much
for this case today Amy thank you Megan
thank you guys for listening

[Music]

women & crime is written and hosted by Megan sacks
and Amy Schlosberg our producer and
editor is James Varga our music is
composed by desert media

sources for today’s episodes come from
the book free Cyntoia Brown
long the Netflix documentary Murder two
mercy Time magazine and NPR