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[00:00:00] Meghan Sacks: This podcast contains sensitive topics and discussions. Listener discretion is advised,
[00:00:05] Amy Shlosberg: this woman who was assaulted by a Sanford swimmer known only as Emily Doe, not only took her name back, but she changed the conversation around sexual assault forever. This is the Chanel Miller story.
[00:00:38] Hey Megan. Good morning, Amy. Yet again, this story comes from a memoir I was reading lately. I have just been going hard on my memoirs, but this is definitely a story that I’ve heard a bunch of times, but I only ever knew the offender’s name, never the victims. And as we go through this, it will become very clear as to why many recognize [00:01:00] his name and not her name.
[00:01:01] I’m so
[00:01:02] Meghan Sacks: very curious on this one. Amy, what was the book
[00:01:04] Amy Shlosberg: It’s called Know my Name, and it’s written by, Chanel Miller and Megan. It left me speechless. I know that I rave about a lot of books on here, but this one was, it was just different. This book was definitely up there with one of the most powerful ones I have ever read.
[00:01:20] In fact, I was hoping to speak with Chanel herself about her book, but unfortunately I was told that she’s not doing interviews at this time. Oh, so instead what I’ll be doing is I’ll be reading some of Chanel’s published statements as we go through this episode because honestly, her words are way more powerful than anything I could ever say.
[00:01:38] As much as I would love to speak with this brilliant and inspiring woman, for now, we will just tell her story. Chanel Miller was born in Palo Alto, California on June 12th, 1992. Her mother had immigrated from China and she was an artist and writer, and her father and American was a psychologist. Chanel also had a younger sister, Tiffany, whom she was [00:02:00] very close with.
[00:02:00] And she had what many would consider an idyllic childhood. Her family was very close, they were supportive and they place a very high value on creativity and individualism. And although Shai Chanel had many friends and she excelled academically, she was extremely creative from a young age. She was in school plays and very involved in extracurricular activities in the arts.
[00:02:22] And she dreamed of being a children’s author when she grew up. After graduating from high school in 2010, she attended the University of California Santa Barbara’s College of Creative Studies, and here she would earn her bachelor’s degree in literature. Now, Chanel graduated in 2014, but shortly before she graduated, she.
[00:02:42] There was a mass shooting on her campus. Oh, now this is, has nothing to do with the story. It’s just an interesting tidbit about, you know, Chanel’s life. Do you remember the story? Elliot Roger. He was actually known as a spree killer. He was called, it was called a mass shooting, but it was by definition, a spree killing.
[00:02:58] Now on her college [00:03:00] campus, this young man killed six people. He injured 14. Now, this started with a stabbing in his apartment. Then he drove to a nearby sorority house. Shooting and killing three women. Then he went to a nearby deli, and then he fired several shots from his car before shooting himself. Do you remember that story?
[00:03:20] Meghan Sacks: No. I remember now. I didn’t know the name, but when you said the stabbing, I remembered, and I think that would make him both a mess killer and a spree
[00:03:27] Amy Shlosberg: killer. Okay, so a mass killer would be three or more in one particular event where a spree killer. Is different locations, but there’s no cool down time the way there is with a serial killer.
[00:03:38] Correct. So, yeah, I guess you’re right. He could kind of fit into both of those categories. Now, Elliot Roger had left a manifesto basically explaining his hatred toward women for rejecting him and his hatred toward men who have sex with women. Not surprisingly, Megan, he was part of a particular community, which we, I’m not sure that we’ve talked about on this show.
[00:03:58] Meghan Sacks: Is it the incel [00:04:00] community? We discussed this in the Lauren Giddings episode with her assailant, whether or not he was
[00:04:05] Amy Shlosberg: an incel, and these are individuals that are kind of banned together through their misogynistic views and hatred towards women. Is that correct? Incel
[00:04:14] Meghan Sacks: basically stands for involuntarily celibate.
[00:04:17] I don’t believe the intention started as necessarily misogynistic. I think it just evolved that way. Unfortunately. You
[00:04:23] Amy Shlosberg: know, after Elliot Roger’s death, he was referred to as a saint in online forums because what he did was seen as heroic among this group. So that just gives you a little view into the ideals and behavior of the incel community.
[00:04:38] Well, that’s what I’m
[00:04:38] Meghan Sacks: saying. Unfortunately, that’s the way it evolved, and that is really unfortunate. In
[00:04:42] Amy Shlosberg: Chanel’s memoir, she talks about this event and how it felt being kind of stuck in her dorm room, you know, getting the emergency alerts and knowing what was going on. And it does tie in a little bit to some themes that emerge in her life and in her book.
[00:04:57] So Chanel graduated in 2014 and she [00:05:00] wasn’t sure exactly what career path she wanted to pursue, so she spent some time working a few temporary jobs before taking a position with an education technology startup company. Now she was very happy there, you know, she felt like her life was taking off. I’m not sure if you remember your first job, but I remember my first real job where I would hold my coffee and sit in my cubicle.
[00:05:20] What a feeling, right?
[00:05:21] Meghan Sacks: Well, mine was miserable, but okay. My first job was utterly miserable, but I get
[00:05:26] Amy Shlosberg: it. But that feeling of like getting dressed up and getting on, like yes. A, a train to go to work, you know, you just feel like, you know, there’s so much ahead of you. It’s like your,
[00:05:35] Meghan Sacks: your, it’s your first foray into being an adult kind of grownup.
[00:05:38] Amy Shlosberg: Yeah, and that’s where Chanel was in the winter of 2015. You know, she was 22 years old. She was living at home, loved living at home, very close with her parents, and very happy and comfortable there. She was working at this job and she was in a new long distance relationship with a man named Lucas. She recently had met Lucas at a night out.
[00:05:57] He’s was actually living in Philly, but he was visiting friends [00:06:00] in the area. Got it. And the two hit it off and they started this long distance relationship. He was in grad school in Philadelphia at the time, and they would each take turns flying California, Philly to be with each other. Now things are going great for Chanel, you know, she’s, her life’s moving in a positive direction, but one event would upheave her whole life and leave her questioning everything.
[00:06:20] On January 17th, 2015, Chanel’s sister Tiffany was home visiting the family. She had been attending college nearby at Cal Poly, so she would come home sometimes on the weekends, and as I mentioned, Chanel and Tiffany were very close, so they would often hang out and they would hang out with each other’s friends.
[00:06:38] On that particular evening, Tiffany brought her friend Julia home to the Miller’s house. The family all had dinner together, and afterwards the three girls left the house to attend a fraternity party hosted by Kappa Alpha on the nearby Stanford University campus. Now, Tiffany had many friends who attended Stanford and it was also very common for them to hang out there.
[00:06:57] Chanel says, growing up again, they were only like 10 minutes [00:07:00] away. Growing up, the family would attend events there all the time. They were like almost part of the college town. In fact, Chanel and Tiffany’s mom drove them that night to drop them off cuz the girls had pre-gamed. Got it. I’m sure you remember those days right?
[00:07:12] Hanging out and having a little party before the actual party.
[00:07:16] Meghan Sacks: Of course. Yeah. I mean that wasn’t really uncommon.
[00:07:20] Amy Shlosberg: Yeah. But looking ba you know, it’s funny cuz I, I look at this now and she talks about how they got to the Kappa Alpha party sometime between 11 and 1115. And I’m thinking like, wow. I don’t know how I ever did that, but I used to go to parties that late too.
[00:07:33] I’m surprised to
[00:07:34] Meghan Sacks: hear that about you, Amy, cuz you’re in REM sleep by then, but, okay. Yes.
[00:07:39] Amy Shlosberg: And as is often the case, by the time they got to the party, you know, there were Erie students drinking, dancing, having a great time. Chanel recalls them acting silly and just having fun. Chanel felt a little old for the crowd, but she says she didn’t care.
[00:07:51] She was having fun with her sister and her sister’s friends. Mm-hmm. One particular guy that night kept going around hitting on a lot of women at the party. And [00:08:00] it was in a way that was later reported as quote, coming on really strong. And this guy seemed to have a particular interest in Tiffany, but she continuously rebuffed his advances, and at least after a while, he seemed to move on to other women.
[00:08:14] Now, I would imagine almost every woman who is listening can relate to this to being a woman at a frat party or just out in the world and experiencing unwanted attention from males. The girls continued to drink and enjoy themselves, and a little bit before midnight, this was about, I’d say like an hour after they got to the party.
[00:08:33] Chanel called her boyfriend Lucas and left him a message that she admits was a drunk message, and we’ve all been there calling our boyfriend drunk just to chat, right? Yes. Um, a little after Chanel called Lucas, this was now around 12:10 AM Tiffany left Chanel at the party in order to help a drunk friend back to her dorm room while Chanel waited for her sister to come back.
[00:08:55] She called Lucas again and left him another message. He then called her back and [00:09:00] the two spoke for about 10 minutes with the call ending around 12:20 AM at 1230. Chanel called Tiffany to see where she was, but Tiffany did not pick up the phone at this time. What happens next? Megan is unclear as there are a few varying accounts, but I will tell you what we know.
[00:09:17] Okay. At 12:55 AM two Swedish PhD engineering students were riding their bikes past the Alpha Kappa frat house when they noticed something unsettling. They noticed a man on top of a partially clothed woman in between two dumpsters, and the woman looked unconscious while the man moved around on top of her.
[00:09:37] The two students say that they shouted and approached the man because they said they just knew something didn’t look right, and if you see something, do something. It’s so awesome that these guys trusted their instincts. Yep. Good for them. As they approached the two, the man who was on top of the woman jumped up and started running away.
[00:09:53] But the students caught up to him once, stayed behind to make sure that the woman on the floor was okay while one [00:10:00] of them tackled the man to the ground, called the police, and they literally sat on him until the police arrived. Wow. Now, the woman on the ground, as you might have guessed, was Chanel Miller.
[00:10:09] Mm-hmm. Within 10 minutes, police and paramedics arrived on the scene and on the morning of January 18th, 2015, the captured man was handcuffed and put in the back of a police car for questioning. This man was Brock Turner. A 19 year old college student who is going to Stanford on a swimming scholarship.
[00:10:29] In fact, Megan, he was so good at swimming that he was considered an Olympic hopeful at the time. Right? But Brock was also known for drinking heavily and getting what some would say, handsy with females and had been the same man who had been harassing Tiffany only hours before. We know this because Tiffany would later ID him.
[00:10:47] And many other women would have similar accounts. Mm-hmm. Now I’m gonna pause here for a minute. When I said Chanel Miller, did you know I was talking about Brock Turner case? No, I didn’t. Isn’t that interesting?
[00:10:57] Meghan Sacks: Yes, it’s exactly what you pointed out that [00:11:00] I know Brock Turner, but nope, I did not know Chanel Miller’s
[00:11:03] Amy Shlosberg: name.
[00:11:03] When I started reading Chanel Miller’s book, I had absolutely no idea that this was the victim in the Brock Turner case. When police asked Brock what he had been doing, he explained that he met Chanel outside the frat house, the two started kissing, and that he followed her holding hands behind the dumpster.
[00:11:21] He said that he placed his hand between her legs and that she seemed to enjoy it. He also told police that he didn’t recall running when the students approached him. Meanwhile, paramedics tried to revive Chanel as she was breathing but unresponsive. Chanel was immediately transported to the hospital where she woke up early on the 18th, having no idea where she was.
[00:11:40] She felt sore and she had dry blood on her hands. Her hair was also entangled with dozens of pine needles. She did know, however, that something wasn’t right. I mean, other than being in the hospital, her dress that she was wearing that evening was around her waist. Her underwear was missing and she was wearing clothes that were not hers.[00:12:00]
[00:12:00] At this time. Chanel was also given some forms to fill out, and on the top of a form it said the words rape victim. So she was very confused as to what was going
[00:12:10] Meghan Sacks: on. To wake up in a hospital with pine needles near swore, not knowing what happened. That’s. That’s terrifying
[00:12:14] Amy Shlosberg: and her underwear is missing. She has no idea.
[00:12:16] She, she knew she was wearing underwear that evening and her underwear is missing. In addition, several doctors came in and were performing invasive exams on her, including vaginal swabbing and taking up close photos. Essentially, Megan, they were doing a rape kit. She was told that they wanted to check for signs of sexual assault.
[00:12:34] Chanel questioned this, you know, what’s going on. I don’t recall being sexually assaulted. So a detective had told her, well, you know, there was this guy that had been acting hinky around you, and we apprehended him. At this time, no one told Chanel that she had been found at the scene, missing her underwear, that her dress had been crumpled above her waist, or that her breasts were exposed, or that the contents of her purse were thrown around her.
[00:12:58] None of this was told to Chanel.
[00:12:59] Meghan Sacks: I’m [00:13:00] just confused. I thought they usually had a social worker, someone you know, to counsel her. So I’m confused why there was no one there an advocate
[00:13:06] Amy Shlosberg: for her. She did have what you would consider victim advocates with her. Okay. But nobody was really telling her what happened.
[00:13:12] Okay. It was almost as if they were keeping it from Chanel. Chanel didn’t know what happened and no one was really telling her. So at this point she. Thought maybe there was this guy, quote, who acted hinky, but she seemed to think that they were just checking all their bases as there was a guy who was acting weird and they just wanted to make sure she was okay.
[00:13:31] Okay. So Chanel was cleared by the doctors to leave, and she called her sister who came to pick her up, and they decided not to tell their parents anything because at this point they didn’t even really know what happened. So why tell their parents something that may not actually be anything. But a few days later, while she was at work, Chanel was able to figure out the story.
[00:13:50] What happened?
[00:13:51] Meghan Sacks: Did the investigators call her? Did she put this together on her own? How? How did this happen?
[00:13:55] Amy Shlosberg: Yeah, Megan, you would think that perhaps the investigators would let her know what was [00:14:00] going on, but nope. Chanel was browsing the internet and a story popped up on her newsfeed. She saw the word Stanford rape and intoxicated unconscious woman.
[00:14:10] These words jumped out at her. It was here that she learned for the first time what had been done to her. The article informed her that her assailant had penetrated her with his fingers while she was unconscious. That’s
[00:14:22] Meghan Sacks: so traumatic, like trauma upon trauma. To learn that from, someone should have told her, you should not be learning that for the first time in print media,
[00:14:30] Amy Shlosberg: and it gets worse.
[00:14:30] I mean, this was the first time that she heard the name Brock Turner. So she was shocked by this article. It was not only this article that shocked Chanel, it was the comment section that sent her reeling. She was reading phrases like, what was she doing at a frat party? This isn’t really rape. Why was she alone?
[00:14:48] I. Well, she’s the predator. She’s older than him. Why would you ever get that drunk? My kids would never be at a party like
[00:14:54] Meghan Sacks: that. We did an article on this. This is Rape Myths perpetuated in the media, and this is part of the
[00:14:59] Amy Shlosberg: [00:15:00] problem. You’re absolutely right. It’s as if she deserved to be molested behind a dumpster, as if in some way she had asked for it simply by being at a frat party.
[00:15:08] And unfortunately we see this all too often. Mm-hmm. Survivors tend to be disrespected and denounced based on their choices or external factors that have nothing to do with the assaults that were perpetuated on them. Absolutely. And the news story spread quickly. And Chanel was known now as Emily Doe, the unconscious woman who was assaulted by a Sanford swimmer.
[00:15:29] All of the articles and the headlines blazed across the internet talking about Brock and his athletic abilities.
[00:15:36] Meghan Sacks: So they’re focusing on the fact that he’s a star athlete. That’s part of the bigger part of the story here.
[00:15:42] Amy Shlosberg: Got it. Yeah. And more so the articles focus on what Brock Turner had to lose instead of how Brock Turner had victimized Chanel.
[00:15:50] Now, the narrative like it often does to most victims. It puts Chanel on the defense, and she suddenly felt like she needed to explain why she got so intoxicated, why [00:16:00] she went to a frat party, why she was wearing a dress. Terrible. And as you know from the research that you cited before, it’s really difficult to take back a public narrative once it gets out of control.
[00:16:10] Chanel’s already been attacked before anyone even knows who she is or knows the story. We see that from those comments sections. So because of who Brock Turner was, the case blew up. It was about a fallen athlete from one of America’s most prestigious schools. A lot of these articles never bothered to unpack how his actions might have affected his victim in her memoir, Chanel describes being angry and depressed as the story took off, and she began withdrawing from everything because she felt alone and embarrassed.
[00:16:41] I mean, while her identity was protected, and while many may say that was a good thing that Chanel’s identity was protected, she describes this as almost leading a double life. She was Chanel and she was, Emily Chanel describes how she felt so alone because there were very few people in her life who knew that she was in fact, [00:17:00] Emily, she would be in settings where people would be openly talking about the case and whether or not Emily was to blame it all.
[00:17:06] And Chanel would be sitting right there. She’d have to go to work as Chanel, and then she would leave to be Emily, or she would be Chanel at work and she would get a call from the DA or from investigators and she would take the call at work and she would have to leave early because she was so caught off guard by what they were telling her, like along every step of the way.
[00:17:25] So what’s
[00:17:26] Meghan Sacks: happening at this point? Has Brock been arrested yet?
[00:17:28] Amy Shlosberg: Yeah, so he was arrested and he was initially charged with five counts of felony assault. He also withdrew from Stanford after the charging, and Chanel expected that her rapist would admit to his actions, perhaps offer an apology. He would reach a settlement and life would go on.
[00:17:45] It wasn’t expected that Brock would. Deny his actions,
[00:17:48] Meghan Sacks: right? It probably wasn’t expected either that this would become a total media sensation
[00:17:53] Amy Shlosberg: as it did at his hearing. In February of 2015, Brock pled not guilty to five felony charges, which [00:18:00] included the rape of an intoxicated person, rape of an unconscious person.
[00:18:04] Sexual penetration by a foreign object of an unconscious woman, sexual penetration by a foreign object of an intoxicated woman and assault. With the attempt to commit rape, he was released on $150,000 bail. His parents had the means to, you know, to bail him out. So he was, you know, he was back in the community.
[00:18:23] This case got tricky because both parties were intoxicated at the time of the assault, right? So because of this, Brock’s counsel felt that it had a case claiming that the sexual encounter was consensual. And a lot of media started focusing on the fact that Chanel’s blood alcohol concentration was three times the legal limit, while Brocks was two times the legal limit.
[00:18:45] Again, forming this narrative that this is just a story of two drunk kids that didn’t realize what they
[00:18:50] Meghan Sacks: were doing. I think they were trying to negate intent here, arguing that he probably couldn’t form intent because he was also
[00:18:57] Amy Shlosberg: intoxicated. Yes. And the fact that. [00:19:00] She can’t remember if she consented because she was intoxicated, right?
[00:19:03] So they’re taking it from both angles, right? You cannot consent when you’re unconscious. You cannot consent when you’re blackout drunk. So on Chanel’s side, consent should not be the question. I agree. Chanel adamantly stated that she never gave any sort of consent, and in fact, she had no memory of the assault whatsoever.
[00:19:22] As is often the case, the trial date kept getting pushed back and Chanel felt as though her life was on hold. She talks about how she was planning a vacation with her boyfriend, but she couldn’t because what if all of a sudden the DA called, we need you? You know, she couldn’t really start the next stages in her life until this was behind her.
[00:19:40] It wasn’t until October, 2015 that a preliminary hearing was held. Now a preliminary hearing is just simply a probable cause hearing. Where the prosecution is trying to make a case to the judge that they have probable cause to continue moving the case forward to trial. Now these things often move very [00:20:00] slow and victims are left in a state of limbo.
[00:20:02] There were many times where Chanel had no idea what was going on, right? She did have some great victim advocates and she does give credit to her DA for doing the best she could in the situation. So she had people supporting her, but just the system in general kept letting her down. I
[00:20:17] Meghan Sacks: don’t know if you recall Amy, too, when we just covered Ruth Markel’s case, she also discussed that even though she had great victim advocates, there were these times where you’re alone and your advocates can’t be there for you and it’s you.
[00:20:28] You know what I mean? There’s pockets of time that you are gonna be left to dealt with this. So even if they’re doing the best they can, You’re still going to be alone afraid, and you know, unsure of what’s going on at many different times
[00:20:41] Amy Shlosberg: At this time, charges for rape of an intoxicated person and rape of an unconscious person were dropped.
[00:20:47] This often happens. We know that charges can change. Basically, in this case, what happened is D N A results finally came back and they did not have the evidence they needed to pursue those charges, so they determined that he would stand trial for [00:21:00] the three other charges that I mentioned earlier. Okay, so again, they dropped the actual rape charges.
[00:21:05] At this time, Brock still decided to keep with his plea of not guilty, and they were headed to trial. At trial, the prosecution held that Brock was aware that the woman he took behind the dumpster was drunk, and that he knowingly took advantage of her. In fact, some suggest that he may have actually carried an unconscious Chanel to that place.
[00:21:24] Oh,
[00:21:25] Meghan Sacks: if they’re able to show that he carried her, I mean, this would seem like a no-brainer, but
[00:21:30] Amy Shlosberg: Okay. Go ahead. The defense claimed that the act was consensual and that Brock could only run away from the two men because he felt sick from alcohol and needed to vomit The defense called several character witnesses, including some of Brock’s high school teachers.
[00:21:44] Now, basically what they’re trying to do here is show, no, this is a great guy here. You know, he would never hurt anyone. And I find this frustrating that we do this in our legal system because I don’t think that’s relevant to the issue at hand. He could have been the greatest guy. That doesn’t [00:22:00] mean that he didn’t assault this victim.
[00:22:03] Absolutely. They even called his ex-girlfriend to talk about whether or not he had sex in public places. You know, they were just really just pulling out all the stops. You know, maybe it is possible that Brock was a fine young man and that his teachers and his ex-girlfriend had lovely things to say about him.
[00:22:19] Frankly, I don’t think it’s relevant to the issue at hand. Brock also testified, and his story was different than what he initially told detectives on the night of the assault. Now on the stand, Brock recalled meeting and dancing with Chanel inside the frat house. He said he asked her to go back to his dorm room and that the two of them left together.
[00:22:37] He said that they were walking and they were both drunk, slipping and falling and laughing and just having a great time. He then said, he specifically asked her if he could touch her intimately and she said yes. He also admitted that he did run, but that the reason he did so was that he was scared of the two students and he was afraid they were going to beat him up.
[00:22:58] We can hypothesize [00:23:00] here that he changed his narrative in an effort to prove that Chanel consented. Now the prosecution called Tiffany Julia and the two men who stopped the assault. Now, Tiffany had to endure a grueling cross-examination. Everything she said was scrutinized and at some point she said that the reason why she left Chanel is cuz Chanel seemed to be fine on her own.
[00:23:22] So of course these words were taken outta context, and the defense attorney made it seem as if Chanel was sober and she’d be able to consent because she was fine. And this was really hard for Tiffany because Tiffany felt like it was her fault that things were going a certain way because she was afraid that she kept messing things up on the stand.
[00:23:41] Well, I
[00:23:42] Meghan Sacks: feel bad for Tiffany because she probably also had to live with the guilt of feeling bad that she had, you know, left sh Chanel in the first place and now, You know, it seems like she’s letting her down again.
[00:23:51] Amy Shlosberg: This is awful. If you think this is awful, wait till you hear what they did to Chanel on the stand.
[00:23:55] Ugh. Chanel was questioned. She was questioned about her decision to go to a [00:24:00] frat party that night, and she was asked what she had to drink. She was asked what kind of particular whiskey did she drink? And as Chanel says in her book quote, it stunned me how seriously all these questions were being asked as if it were normal to recall Every trifling detail.
[00:24:16] To divide the murkiness of casualty, drinking into a chronology of consumption marking minutes between sips. Time was dissected down to the minute length, down to the yard liquid, down to the fluid ounce. My assurance felt almost comical. How could anyone be so sure. She explains how any person in any normal situation, you don’t sit there recounting this level of specificity.
[00:24:40] Yet on the stand, she was being asked and treated as if she was lying by not remembering the exact number of ounces she drank, how many minutes it took her to drink, and none of this should be relevant anyway.
[00:24:51] Meghan Sacks: It’s not relevant. And who could possibly recall that? Are you kidding me?
[00:24:55] Amy Shlosberg: And I urge you all to read her book where she details a lot more of the [00:25:00] cross-examination because it will anger you and the defense attorney Chanel explains how the defense attorney kept cutting her off and kept trying to make it look like she was unsure of herself, but it was really just the tactic he had to make it look like that she was not someone to be believed.
[00:25:15] Meghan Sacks: You know, it’s unfortunate. Uh, there’s rape shield laws that protect victims from certain line of questioning about their past, but you can’t shield them from some of these tactics that defense attorneys will use to seemingly discredit. People who are victims and they don’t have the proper protections against certain line of questioning.
[00:25:33] Mm-hmm. Which
[00:25:34] Amy Shlosberg: is unfortunate as much as a defense tried to discredit Chanel and to show that Brock’s actions were consensual. On March 30th, 2016, after a two week trial, the jury found Brock Turner guilty of three counts of sexual assault. I mean, I was
[00:25:49] Meghan Sacks: very pleased to see that the jury found him guilty.
[00:25:52] And
[00:25:53] Amy Shlosberg: Chanel explains how she felt. She felt so empowered when she heard this verdict, and Chanel says that she was [00:26:00] very pleased with this verdict because she thinks it was the correct one. But then the media narrative came in yet again. The Washington Post announced the verdict and said that critics argued that the jury was harsh on Turner and treated an ambiguous and alcohol fueled moment with black and white certainty.
[00:26:17] It continued with sentencing June 2nd and an appeal possible. Turner’s once promising. Future remains uncertain, but his extraordinary yet brief swim career is now tarnished like a rusting trophy. So once again, it’s focusing on what Brock is losing, not what Chanel
[00:26:35] Meghan Sacks: is losing, not what she’s already lost at the hands of him.
[00:26:39] I hated this narrative and I know exactly where we’re going, so you know, my stomach is turning a little bit now, but go
[00:26:44] Amy Shlosberg: ahead. Before the sentencing, as victims often do, Chanel read a victim impact statement and she looked directly at Brock and read it to him. I’m gonna read parts of it in a couple of minutes, but it was so powerful.
[00:26:57] Do you recall reading it by any chance? I did not read it. [00:27:00] No. Okay. The reason I ask is because it was so moving that on June 3rd, 2016, that was just the day after the sentencing, her victim impact statement was published by buzzfeed, which is one of the largest media producers in the us. Now her victim impact statement was then reprinted in other major news outlets such as The New York Times, the Washington Post, and The Guardian.
[00:27:21] Now, within the first few days of it being released, it was read 11 million times, so it quickly went viral and became kind of like a manifesto for assault survivors all over the world. And at this time, she’s still known as Emily Doe. So these statements were published under Emily Doe. Okay, for now, I’d like to read just a small part of it for our listeners to just get a sense of how powerful and prolific this statement was in her last paragraph, Chanel says, and finally, to girls, everywhere I am with you on the nights when you feel alone.
[00:27:53] I am with you. When people doubt you or dismiss you. I am with you. I fought every day for you, so never stop [00:28:00] fighting. I believe you. As the author Anne Lamont once wrote, lighthouses don’t go running all over an island looking for boats to save. They just stand there shining. Although I can’t save every boat, I hope that by speaking today, you absorbed a small amount of light, a small knowing that you can’t be silenced.
[00:28:17] A small satisfaction that justice was served. A small assurance that we are getting somewhere and a big, big knowing that you are important, unquestionably, you are untouchable. You are beautiful. You are to be valued, respected undeniably every minute of every day. You are powerful and nobody can take that away from you to girls everywhere I am with you.
[00:28:39] Wow. Chills on that. Her whole book reads as well as that statement. Now, Chanel wasn’t the only one who got to read a statement. Brock read a very brief statement, which in my opinion did not seem to reflect any remorse or apology. So this is what Brock had to say. I am so sorry for every moment and span of time, he goes on my mind, my heart and [00:29:00] my body agonize over the suffering and pain I have caused on Chanel Tiffany, and then he continues on, but for the most part, he doesn’t.
[00:29:09] He doesn’t ever take accountability. And even worse, Megan was his father. His father read a letter in open court during the sentencing, and the letter stated that any jail time for his son’s actions would be too harsh. And he asked the judge to grant him solely probation. And in a shocking use of words, he said, quote, his life will never be the one that he dreamed about.
[00:29:31] And that he worked so hard to achieve that is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life.
[00:29:38] Meghan Sacks: I remember that clearly, and I remember thinking, did he realize what he just said? It was awful. I do
[00:29:45] Amy Shlosberg: believe he apologized at some point for his choice of words, but yeah, so you have, you know, Chanel’s powerful statement and the prosecutor’s demanding a six year sentence.
[00:29:56] And of course the defense is demanding no jail [00:30:00] time at all, and to only give Brock probation, I assume
[00:30:02] Meghan Sacks: that six was pretty much the maximum then for the crimes that he was convicted. So that makes sense that the prosecutor was going to demand on the higher side. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:10] Amy Shlosberg: Now, in a shock to many, Brock was only sentenced to six months in jail, and this was as low as was allowed by state guidelines.
[00:30:17] So the judge even stated like his hands were tied. He couldn’t even go any lower. And he also gave Brock three years of probation along with life as a registered sex offender, so with good behavior and time served. We’re looking at just 90 days for Brock, and as he handed down the sentence, judge Aaron Persky very briefly acknowledged Chanel’s victim impact statement, but still made a point to cite Brock’s good character.
[00:30:44] The fact that Brock had been drinking at the time, and he also talked about the impact that prison would have on Brock’s life.
[00:30:51] Meghan Sacks: I remember this clearly as well, and I remember the upset that this caused, rightfully so.
[00:30:57] Amy Shlosberg: Yeah. Luckily, Chanel was not the only one who [00:31:00] was outraged. I mean, Brock’s light sentence caused a national uproar, and this was before the Me Too movement, if you recall.
[00:31:06] Mm-hmm. The internet was aligning with the criticism over the ruling. And people were getting vocal at Stanford’s graduation that year. Many people held signs that said, you know, Stanford protects rapists or other signs in support of Chanel about standing with Chanel. Even the documentary filmmaker, Ken Burns, who was the commencement speaker at Stanford that year said, quote, if someone tells you they have been sexually assaulted, take it effing seriously and listen to them.
[00:31:32] Maybe someday we’ll make the survivor’s eloquent statement as important as Dr. King’s letter from the Birmingham Jail. As she says, that was a very generous comparison. Yes, very profound statement. People were angry about this sentence, so much so that after a contentious special election, judge Aaron Persky became the first judge to be recalled from California’s bench in more than 80 years.
[00:31:56] Wow. The case also led to significant changes in [00:32:00] California’s law, such as setting mandatory prison sentences for anyone convicted of assaulting an unconscious or intoxicated person, and also expanding the definition of rape to include non-consensual sexual penetration,
[00:32:13] Meghan Sacks: right? Important changes that I think happened in other states as well.
[00:32:16] Yep.
[00:32:16] Amy Shlosberg: Other states did certainly follow. On November 1st, 2016, glamour named Emily Doe, woman of the Year for changing a conversation about sexual assault forever. Again, this was because of her powerful victim impact statement. Chanel actually attended the award ceremony, but she was there anonymously and she, at this time, she wanted to continue maintaining her privacy.
[00:32:38] You know, she says she was scared of the backlash because as many people as supported her. There were also many people that were upset that Brock had to be registered as a sex offender indefinitely. Sure. And people that felt that his career had ended too early. A few years later, Chanel decided that it was time to come forward.
[00:32:57] On August 9th, 2019 60 [00:33:00] Minutes released an interview with Chanel, who has now gone public with her name, and here she described her story and the consequences of being anonymous all those years. She also met with the two students who stopped the assault. And soon after her memoir entitled, no, my name was published.
[00:33:16] So this was about a month after the 60 Minutes interview, Chanel’s memoir was published, and then a few months later, she publicly accepted glamorous prior award. She was on stage for the first time as Chanel Miller.
[00:33:29] Meghan Sacks: What a decision that must have been in her life
[00:33:31] Amy Shlosberg: to go public. In the book, she talks about how she felt so powerful after taking back her name, but.
[00:33:38] She talks a lot about the long-term effects, as she says in her book, one evening I was supposed to pick up gin for a party, but I stood with my cart staring at the blue glass bottle thinking What experience is inside this? Who will drink it? Will someone be hurt? Will they ask me what brand? And she says, at parties, quote, I measure everything.
[00:33:57] If there are no shock glasses, I use cap fills. [00:34:00] I see people pouring and I stare. That’s a free pour. I think you can’t do that. They’ll say How much? How many ounces? One third or half a cup. What kind of cup? If someone wanders to the bathroom or leaves with a guy, I grow tents. What do you mean she’s gone?
[00:34:12] Where’d she go? Who she go with? So these are the long-term effects of her traumatic experience that she deals with on a daily basis, even years after her assault. And
[00:34:23] Meghan Sacks: it affects that. Things that the average person wouldn’t think of.
[00:34:26] Amy Shlosberg: The last thing I just wanna say from her book is where she. Talks about how Brock will always be the swimmer turned rapist.
[00:34:33] He was great and then he fell. Anything I do in the future will be by the victim who wrote a book. His talent precedes the tragedy. She was supposedly born into it. I did not come into existence when he harmed me. I had a voice. He stripped it, left me groping around blind for a bit, but I always had it. I just used it like I never had to use it before.
[00:34:55] I do not owe him my success, my becoming. He did not create me. The [00:35:00] only credit Brock can take is for assaulting me, and he could never even admit to that. Wow. So Chanel went on to be listed as an influential person in times 2019 100 Next list. And that same year, Sanford University installed a plaque on campus that memorialized the assault.
[00:35:17] Although I wanna mention, she does talk about how it was a tough process and she did not feel particularly respected throughout the whole process. Okay, in 2020, uh, mural Chanel drew appeared in the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco. And we’re talking a, a big, she’s a brilliant artist. You could look up some of her work, but this was a 70 foot long, 13 foot tall mural that shows three vignettes of a cartoon figure.
[00:35:41] And the phrase is, I was, I am and I will be. And this was when the museum was closed due to the pandemic, but the mural was visible to passerbys with many people saying it was such a light during such a dark time. What an incredible
[00:35:53] Meghan Sacks: accomplishment. And what of Brock Turner after his sentence?
[00:35:58] Amy Shlosberg: Good question.
[00:35:58] So Brock [00:36:00] served 90 days in jail. He did attempt to appeal his conviction, but he was unanimously rejected by three judges. There have been some recent reports that he is struggling with gainful employment. And also what some would say is harassment. There have been reports that say that every time he moves there is notification because of his sex offender status.
[00:36:19] Right. And that as a result people have been harassing him, such as going to his house and egging it, and also, you know, harassing him online. Is it fair that people are taking to social media to call him out? I, I think there’s an issue when we see vigilante justice, whether or not we believe that his sentence was just, the court has spoken.
[00:36:41] He is a registered sex offender for life. He has a criminal record. He served time in jail. I don’t believe that the public has the right to egg his house and continue to harass him. It
[00:36:54] Meghan Sacks: is one of the consequences of being labeled usually a sex offender, is this type of vigilante justice that it [00:37:00] inspires.
[00:37:01] While the sentence, you know, I think we both agree the sentence was too light and the the focus was on him as almost a victim. There is, I will say, great punishment that comes with being a registered sex offender. And you said he’s a registered sex offender for life. That’s a very long time. And there will be a whole host of consequences to him that will come with that status down the line.
[00:37:22] And vigilante justice is probably part of one of the consequences here, but certainly something we can never condone. As a society, the vigilante justice is
[00:37:31] Amy Shlosberg: unnecessary. And Megan, some people point out that it is excessive that he has to be registered for life as a sex offender because when you look at other cases, we see there’s a bit of an issue in our justice system when two people are treated differently.
[00:37:44] And some people say that the reason the judge gave him that is because of all the backlash that the judge was getting from the public. And we don’t wanna live in a system where the judge is making decisions based on emotion. No, I agree.
[00:37:57] Meghan Sacks: I will point out that sex offender status can be [00:38:00] appealed. So at some point I’m sure he’s gonna appeal the the designation for life and ask for a designation and a lesser tier that has less time.
[00:38:08] I wouldn’t be surprised if that
[00:38:09] Amy Shlosberg: happened. Yeah. We see a lot of legislation changing surrounding sex offender laws. Around the
[00:38:14] Meghan Sacks: country. Absolutely. You know, we might see that happen where he appeals to come off the sex offender registry. Um, and I just wanna point out that while Brock is a punished sex offender, there are a lot of misconceptions about sex offenders out there.
[00:38:28] And people tend to throw a blanket on them, you know, kind of the net and say they’re all the same. It’s not true. There are different levels of sex offending. There are different type of sex offenders. And some of them, in fact, a number of them can be rehabilitated and can be deterred. So there’s a number of sex offenders for whom the very, uh, first time they get caught and punished by the system like this is enough of a shock to the system that they won’t re-offend again.
[00:38:53] So I think it’s important to know that, I’m not saying this is Brock Turner, but there are reasons and there there are ways to [00:39:00] rehabilitate sex offenders and to deter them. So you know, there are incentives for them to rehabilitate and it is possible then later on for them to move off the registry if they’ve demonstrated for a long period of time.
[00:39:13] That they are in control and that they absolutely will not re-offend.
[00:39:17] Amy Shlosberg: That’s a very valid point, cuz I think it’s always important to look at all sides of the issues that we discuss. Yes. The only thing I’m gonna add to that is I think it would be important to have the victim’s voice in this process as well.
[00:39:27] Meghan Sacks: Absolutely. Always. Every time we talk about whether or not someone should be released from prison early, you always say, I wanna know what they’ve done with their time. Right. So we wanna see what Brock does with his time. He’s got his, he’s gonna have his own challenges now, but. Is he going to overcome that by being diligent, by good coping skills, by making good choices, and by, you know, assimilating to culture without re-offending.
[00:39:49] So I think, you know, we wanna see what he does over
[00:39:52] Amy Shlosberg: time. I agree. And, I don’t think we could ignore the fact that Brock’s privilege played a big role in this. I don’t know if [00:40:00] you recall, but rather than using his mugshot, most media outlets showed a picture of him wearing a suit and a tie. And as we discussed, I remember he was described as an athlete and Olympic hopeful he received
[00:40:10] Meghan Sacks: the benefit of being painted in the best light.
[00:40:12] Yes, yes. Where offend offenders don’t.
[00:40:15] Amy Shlosberg: He received the benefit of the Dow from the media. They painted him in a favorable light. We do not see that with the majority of people who are accused of crimes in our country. It’s very rare to see a picture of someone in a suit and a tie. If they are being accused of rape.
[00:40:29] Normally, you would see their mugshot. Very rarely will someone who is facing rape charges be described using. Their status as an athlete? That’s correct. Unless of course they have the privilege of being an athlete or mm-hmm. They have some sort of, you know, social capital that makes them more worthy of having the benefit of the doubt.
[00:40:50] Sure. Can you think of any theories that can help us understand Brock’s offending behavior? Well, there’s
[00:40:56] Meghan Sacks: many theories I can think of, but, um, one of the things that always comes to light [00:41:00] when athletes in certain schools perpetrate these crimes is cultural theory. There’s a culture of celebrating athletes and protecting them at all cost to victims.
[00:41:08] And that cultural theory allows them to behave in certain ways cuz they’re supported by this culture and they don’t feel like they’re going to have the consequences because of their status. So I do see cultural theory here when it comes to Brock and other athletes at at these schools with affluent programs.
[00:41:25] How about yourself?
[00:41:26] Amy Shlosberg: I, I definitely agree with that assessment. The only other thing that kept coming up for me, I didn’t mention it in the episode, but he didn’t have, although we didn’t have much of a criminal history, there were several reports of him getting a slap on the wrist for bad behavior. And this is becoming almost like strain theory because we’re saying it’s so much lately, but differential reinforcement theory, it, it seems like he was getting away with bad behavior, so, It ties in with what you’re saying.
[00:41:50] It’s almost this feeling that he was untouchable. Well, learning
[00:41:53] Meghan Sacks: theory, differential reinforcement is kind of like the, the micro level version, right? It’s it, you take it down to the [00:42:00] individual level, but cultural theories, what I’m describing is like the macro level of learning theories. It’s a culture of learning and a culture that’s supported, you know, by certain behaviors that are reinforced.
[00:42:09] So I think they’re kind of one and the same, whereas one is just more about an individual and one’s more about the culture in general. So essentially, you know, the, the idea here is that we need to change the culture around athletes and regarding them as better than, that’s something that ha needs to happen on college campuses and in the media.
[00:42:29] This is really about more responsible media reporting as well, something that you and I have discussed. Researched about, published on, and something that we hope to see going forward to benefit women like Chanel, or not just women, but victims
[00:42:42] Amy Shlosberg: like Chanel. And luckily we have seen some positive changes, some changes in the right direction over the last few decades where, you know, rape on college campuses has been taken more seriously.
[00:42:54] And there have been several reforms.
[00:42:56] Meghan Sacks: So we’ve seen a lot of reforms, as you said. Is there anything else you [00:43:00] wanna discuss in terms of resources or calls to action, things people can do? Where
[00:43:04] Amy Shlosberg: do they turn to? So on Chanel Miller’s website, it’s chanel miller.com. She has many resources that you kinda learn a lot more about these issues.
[00:43:13] There’s an organization called End Rape on Campus, which works to end campus sexual violence through direct support for victims and community. They also do prevention through education. And then there’s Center for Changing Campus Culture. I urge you to check out the resources page on Chanel miller’s website, Chanel miller.com.
[00:43:33] She lists several resources surrounding domestic violence, ending rape on campus, equal rights futures without violence. There’s a lot to see there, and she has links to all of these different organizations where people can go for help. And where they can just learn more about some of these issues and how they can help.
[00:43:51] That’s great.
[00:43:52] Meghan Sacks: Amy. I think there’s a lot of resources. It’s also a sign of progress that we have so many resources now to aid victims. I’m [00:44:00] glad that Chanel was able to provide them, and I’m glad that we’re also able to make them available or at least publicize them because that’s also part of the progress we make.
[00:44:08] So thank you very much for those resources, Amy, and for today’s
[00:44:12] Amy Shlosberg: episode. Yes. And if you’d like to learn more, pick up Chanel’s book. Know my name. All right. Well thank you all so much for listening today, and we will catch you next time on Women in Crime.
[00:44:23] Meghan Sacks: Women in Crime is hosted by Megan Sachs and Amy Schlossberg.
[00:44:27] Our producer and editor is James Varga. Music composition is by Dessert Media. If you enjoy the show, please remember to subscribe and leave a review. You can also support the show through Patreon where you can get access to additional ad-free content, such as virtual, happy hours, and an extra full length episode each month.
[00:44:45] For more information, visit patreon.com/women
[00:44:49] Amy Shlosberg: in Pride.[00:45:00]
[00:45:04] Sources for today’s episode include, know my name by Chanel Miller, the New Yorker, the New York Times, and glamor.